Are You Walking the Talk? Values Alignment in Nonprofits with Rickesh Lakhani
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In a world where trust is paramount, how can small nonprofits ensure they're not just talking the talk, but walking the walk?
In this episode of The Small Nonprofit Podcast, I chat with Rickesh Lakhani, founder of Radiance Advisory, about the importance of aligning actions with values in the nonprofit sector. We delve into the challenges of upholding stated values, especially during leadership transitions, and the significance of creating a culture of trust and truth within organizations.
Rickesh shares insights on how to identify and bridge the gap between an organization's stated values and its actual practices, emphasizing the importance of feedback, vulnerability, and accountability.
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Key Episode Highlights:
Authenticity is Key: Donors connect with real, unpolished stories that showcase both the successes and challenges of your work. Embrace vulnerability and share the human side of your organization.
Storytelling is Powerful: Use video and other visual mediums to tell compelling stories that highlight the impact of your work. Let service users share their own experiences to create a deeper connection with donors.
Community Cultivation Matters: Move beyond transactional giving and focus on building a community of donors who are invested in your mission. Foster engagement through regular updates, personalized communication, and opportunities for interaction.
Technology Can Help: Leverage platforms to streamline your fundraising efforts, connect with a wider audience, and build a thriving community of supporters.
Embrace AI (Wisely): Explore the potential of AI in automating tasks, curating content, and enhancing donor experiences. However, prioritize authenticity and avoid using AI to generate fake or misleading content.
Don’t forget to become a supporter of our show!
Watch this episode on Youtube: https://youtu.be/z5NzlB-a4WY
Links and Resources:
Website: https://www.radianceadvisory.com/
Connect with Rickesh on LinkedIn: https://ca.linkedin.com/in/rickeshlakhani
Connect with Rickesh on X: https://x.com/ConstantChanges
Connect with Maria on LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mariario/
Support the show: https://www.buzzsprout.com/208666/supporters/new
Transcript:
00:00:00 Rickesh: There has to be some boundary. We are a workplace, we're not a family, and it's just not gonna be the case. And so you can be close, you can work well together. In the end, you're colleagues. Now, sometimes you might be closer as people and you might have better relationships, but in the end, as someone we were working with at our organization, [Jillary Massa], it was brilliant. Basically, it's like you're working in a hierarchy. So Rickesh, no matter how nice you think you are, no matter how open-ended you think you are, in the end, you're in a hierarchy and that's gonna impact this.
00:00:00 Maria: Welcome back to The Small Nonprofit, the podcast where your passion meets action. Welcome back to The Small Nonprofit podcast. I'm here with Rickesh. Hi, Rickesh.
00:00:41 Rickesh: Hi, Maria. How are you?
00:00:42 Maria: I'm so good. And I think you've been on the podcast maybe twice with Cindy. Is that right?
00:00:49 Rickesh: Yeah. Yeah. A couple of times before.
00:00:51 Maria: Yeah. So.
00:00:52 Rickesh: First time with you.
00:00:53 Maria: Yeah. First time with me doing it. A little bit differently, but yeah, I'm glad that you're back to share all your insights with our listeners. For people who don't know you, could you give them a quick overview of who you are, what you do?
00:01:06 Rickesh: Yes, I am Rickesh. I am the founder, lead consultant of Radiance Advisory. And so I'm working with leaders and organizations to help them do what they say and really just looking at how we can use truth and trust to sort of drive the work that we do and also really shift the way that we're doing work within the charity nonprofit social impact space. I've been in this sector for almost 20 years and had a different experience mostly in fundraising, but also then in leadership roles and really just want to see us do our work better. So that's kind of my focus now is really focusing on how we do the work, not just the work that we're doing.
00:01:47 Maria: I feel like that focus is so genuine to who you are. So exciting.
00:01:53 Rickesh: Thank you. And outside of that, I have three young kids. That keeps me busy. And I really just spend time with family and bike riding, camping, things like that. So that's a little bit outside of work stuff because work isn't only who we are, right?
00:02:09 Maria: Yeah, that's fair. How did you get involved in nonprofit originally?
00:02:13 Rickesh: I'm like that generation that sort of fell into it that I came out of school and I, you know, very open that I went to school for business and was sort of not really feeling the idea of increasing shareholder value as my driving force and then exploring and saying, actually, is there a way to increase community value? And then discovering this whole other space where you could explore some of that. And so that's really where I got my start. And someone was like, wait, why don't you get started at this role? It's going to be like $500 a week, but it's going to be great learning. It's like a boot camp for fundraising.
00:02:47 Rickesh: And so I took that or that role on, and then I kind of just really thought that this is where I want to spend my time. And it was, it's very rewarding, fulfilling, problematic, too, as we know, it's not a perfect place to be. But I did sort of fall into it and discover it. It wasn't like I set out as many folks do now. I'm going to, you know, have a career in the charity, nonprofit social impact sector.
00:03:07 Maria: Yeah, I think I only know like a handful of people who consciously decided to become a fundraiser or to go into, nonprofit. And then same thing with, like the ED position. It's like, oh, well, there's no one else here. I guess I'll do it. It's not something that usually happens on purpose.
00:03:25 Rickesh: That is often the case, and that definitely speaks to some issues around succession planning and leadership development and support and all of that, and turnover and attrition in organizations. So that's definitely a big issue right there.
00:03:38 Maria: I want to dive a little bit deeper when you say, I help organizations do what they say. What does that mean? Does that mean, like there are public facing communications? Does that mean when they put it up, BLM statement or where is a more program related?
00:03:57 Rickesh: Well, actually, it really is about values and those really permeate into everything that you do. So I think sometimes we see values work showing up mostly on the programmatic side. Like, here's how we're going to run our programs to make them really serving, communities, driven through community and really not just like us imposing something. So I see a lot in the programming space. But then in organizations, then there's the HR, there is even finance decisions, definitely fundraising, marketing, and we sometimes miss the mark on those things.
00:04:27 Rickesh: We also see a lot of organizations, for example, have is, like a gender justice organization that is advocating against the gender pay gap and then is, has that existing within their own organization that really exists. That's like, how do we align who we strive to be, but not just looking at the values on your website or what you say, it's really in the day-to-day runnings of the organization and permitting it into every possible thing you do.
00:04:54 Rickesh: So you can take this kind of lens around whatever you wanna call it, equity, justice, anti-racism, anti-abortion. You can really apply that lens to everything. And sometimes we don't see it that way. So I definitely do not call myself a specialist in that area. However, I do like to encourage folks to wear that lens in whatever you're doing. Like, for example, your budget dictates your priorities. So if you say something is important and there's 0% dollar allocation to it, then clearly it's not that important. So that's not my idea, but that's the kind of stuff that I like to help folks discover and see, oh wow, here's other areas so that it's not just our programs, it's holistic approach.
00:05:28 Maria: At the Accelerate Conference last year, they had this open session where anyone could come and talk about a specific topic that was bothering them, but mostly through the lens of, there's racialized fundraisers in the room and what are we all having in common? And one of the things that kept coming up was leadership not living up to stated values because it was a little bit like a bait and switch. You come in thinking you're going to do something that aligns with your values and then it doesn't. And at that point, from my thinking, this wasn't said there. But what's the difference between working here and working at Coca-Cola? If I'm going to be treated the same, paid less and still not aligned with my values, why not move to the corporate sector, right?
00:06:11 Rickesh: 100%. I think this is something that we're talking a lot about in this space, or some of us are anyways, that why if I'm coming here with a certain expectation and if anything, it's a little bit more sinister, but there's a show called Billions. And I don't know, spoiler alert, I guess, I don't know if anyone's even watching that show, but there's like the first billionaire is this guy. He's a straight up, I'm here for the money and the power and he's very open about it. So a lot of people don't like him and he does bad things, but he doesn't like, hide from that.
00:06:39 Rickesh: And then there's like this second billionaire, again, spoiler alert, who comes in and he's all about charity, community, and he has billions of dollars, but he's all about giving back to the community. Turns out to be even worse, but it's amplified by the fact that he's kidding himself and trying to kid others saying that, well, no, but I'm doing all this stuff. I'm like, well, then it's almost worse. I'd rather just be with the first guy, because at least I know what I'm in for.
00:07:02 Maria: 100%. Oh, and I actually wanted to talk and touch on like how you discover the organization's values to try to help them, live them more fully because something that I found is the ED might have these values, but they're not anywhere else. Maybe the board is blocking them from being more pervasive across the organization, or maybe it's a different kind of issue. But then when the ED leaves, so do those values. So how do you understand what the organization's values are? Because it's made up of people, right? It's made up of pieces that are coming and going. So I would love to hear your thoughts on that.
00:07:42 Rickesh: That's a really good question because again, to me values, you know, you sometimes see on like a website, accountability and togetherness and all this stuff. And then you ask people in the organization, well, what does that mean? How do you know that's happening? What does that even mean to you? How does it show up? And they just, they don't even know. So either they don't know. So not everybody's clear on what that even means on a day to day basis, cause it's the behaviors that reinforce that in the end, how we actually do our work. Or they're like, no, they say that, but that's not actually how it is on the inside. So like the bait and switch thing you talked about.
00:08:12 Rickesh: So to me, it's not just about having clarity on the values and also everybody aligning on what they actually believe that they mean. So that's a little bit of exploration work we could do together in a room, getting different folks together using different, you can use survey, you can use group discussions, one-on-one interviews. And just really, I think if you identify the behaviors that people say, there are the ones that make the organization a positive one. And then you can group those together and those actually dictate what the values are.
00:08:38 Rickesh: And so I remember at a previous organization, we actually didn't have, we didn't call it values. We called it behavior statements or something along those lines where it was like, this is what it shows up as in your work. And so it took time, but we actually came about that because we were doing some evaluation work. And we kept talking about how it was actually the way that we do things that is one of the things that creates a successful outcome. And it was like, well, what does that mean? What are we talking about here?
00:09:05 Rickesh: We gathered from program service recipients. We gathered from volunteers and donors, staff, everybody who we could. What are some of those things? And those boiled down into like five buckets. And so then you could see it. It wasn't just accountability or something. It was like, we support each other and learning and growth, even when it's challenging or stuff like that. And so then once you have that thing, then you can actually distribute that to everybody.
00:09:29 Rickesh: So we ended up with everybody, board members, volunteers, anybody and program recipients, like anyone who was part of the organization saw those and understood that that's how we do things and then also helped us be accountable to each other when we were going off track. You signed up to do things this way. This is what you can expect from the organization. Tell us if we're not doing that. And even in any surveys that we would do with people, we would ask how are we living those values? Are we doing good with it? What's not lining up?
00:09:55 Rickesh: So it's being very, very clear, identifying the specific behaviors that give you an example because a new person coming into an established culture may have trouble with that. So they get a better idea of what it looks like. And they also put it even on job postings. So it's once you have that, and it's more than just words. Like if you really want people to get a sense of organization, it's actually four or five sentences. But that's how you come about it. And then also how you use them to have it show up in everything. It doesn't answer your question about when leadership transitions. That's probably a whole separate piece is, how do you maintain this? But hopefully embedded it everywhere. It's harder.
00:10:29 Maria: I think it's great though. Cause then it's like reverse engineered. So it's based on actuality, not where we would like to be. It's not just like inclusion. It's based on, like what our staff, people, volunteers, community members saying about us that are our strengths, which I love. I think it's so, so helpful. I wonder if that might also, like, help explore new areas where you're like, oh, but I thought it was gonna be inclusivity. I thought that that was gonna be one of the values that showed up. And it didn't, that is not what we heard. So maybe if we wanted to live up to this original value of what I thought was our value, maybe we create an action plan and see how we measure up again the next time we do this exercise. So like two, three years from now.
00:11:15 Rickesh: Yeah, absolutely. That's a great thing. You feel like, well, here's what we want to embody. And that's part of the work that I'm trying to do is we want to embody this value, but people internally are not saying that's happening, that gap is what you're talking about the bait and switch, that feeling of like what we say versus what's happening on the inside. So it's like, how do we close that gap? And so if we do say, well, actually, we do want to embody this. So what are those again, what do those behaviors look like? So that's an actual discussions, which I've had is if we want to embody this value, what does that mean? What would your experience be?
00:11:42 Rickesh: And we have to use multiple ways to collect that data, because it's a hierarchy, there's dynamics, there's all sorts of things going on. And so multiple tools to get that information surveys, Mentimeters and meetings I love because even if somebody says something out loud and then they put on a Mentimeter, just the Mentimeter, like words are more real or asking people to put into a chat, like thinking about accessibility to like, what are the multiple ways you can collect information that allow for people to share it in the best way that works for them?
00:12:10 Rickesh: And anonymously is very powerful. Some people don't like that, but anonymously, is… just the people are going to give it to you very, very real. So then that's how you can say, how do we live up this value? What are we missing now? And what do we need to do? And then that becomes something you strive towards over time. It does… definitely does take time.
00:12:27 Maria: I feel like trying to collect feedback anonymously though, poses a challenge because people might not trust you enough to have this conversation with you. And that's why we're turning to, anonymous. Why I've been at organizations where like the senior management teams, like whose handwriting is this, like trying to match it up, like something else or like, Oh, they use this word. It must be them. It ends up being much less anonymous than what you intend.
00:12:53 Maria: What I've seen before as well is this organization that asks, okay, which of you have visible or invisible disabilities? And later that being used as a performance thing with a colleague to be like, oh, it's because you have anxiety, isn't it? So I don't know, how do you feel about that? Because it can be a little bit risky for the staff person.
00:13:14 Rickesh: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. There's no perfect way to do this. And I think what we're talking about is an environment where there is some established level of trust in the first place. And so I actually look at what is the response rate even to this where we're saying we really want 100% participation in this and is there… Are people even willing to come to the table to do even an anonymous survey? Upfront, we would always say, I think people have to see this in there again, in how it's followed through. We don't care about who says what we just want the real, real here. We don't care about who says what.
00:13:42 Rickesh: In fact, we're going to even have a third party administer that. And that's what we did with our employee. SaaS surveys was… I don't, me as the ED, I'm not going to fill it out. I don't even want to know who said what. And I'm not even going to look at the actual data. And I don't want much as we try to preserve quotes and stories because we want that to be maintained in this particular situation. It's like, I don't want quotes because then I might be able to tell from the way it's worded or what the person said. So we remind people to say, I'm only going to be presented with themes and scores on the quantitative measures.
00:14:10 Rickesh: So it's really, really minimizing the opportunities to identify folks, even eliminating IP addresses from survey month. You can do that. You're doing a survey month. You can say, I don't even want to collect the IP addresses. So there is a risk for employees. I think that depends on the environment. Hopefully there's already trust there. And so the man, if the management is going to do what you just described, well, that kind of says everything right there anyways. So they're not going to get the truth from people. And if they do, it's going to be misused and then people are just going to stop being real with you anyways. So that's a closed loop there. So I think they've got bigger problems to worry about, that moment.
00:14:44 Maria: Oh my God. I heard of another one where I think a consultant colleague of mine, who told me this, but one of their clients went through, like the EI assessment based on their ED's behavior, who was really toxic, really horrible, bad for everyone. By, when the assessment came back, the ED removed all the comments about themselves before handing this to the board. Horror stories.
00:15:09 Rickesh: I've actually heard something similar. I don't know if I… probably was the same organization. That means that's happened at least twice. But no, I think because for many reasons, sometimes we're scared of that truth. And that's part of the issue is that for an ED, if you're genuinely going in and wanting people's feedback, then you have to take all of it. And that's hard because it might be critical towards you or the way you're doing things. So if ego is driving the ship, driving the car, then it's not gonna work.
00:15:35 Rickesh: So that's also part of the work I'm doing is I'm trying to work with leaders to say, like put a mirror up and be like, we can't forget the role that you're playing in this. And so you have to own if you might be part of the issue as to what's happening here. And if you're not ready to do that, then I probably can't even work with you to be honest. Because that leader could do the things you're talking about and really use the information gathered to, actually what I've seen happen as well is organizations saying they've done all that gathering of information. They've doctored it up heavily before they presented, to the board or the public.
00:16:05 Rickesh: And then they say, well, look, see, we did all this, we got all that feedback, but they've kind of swept all the other stuff under the rug. So it's not really, the real. I think people want to see that from organizations. I think it says a lot when organizations say, here's the things that we need to work on that we're doing wrong. Like we would always present the undoctored results to our team and good, bad, whatever it was. And then we'll say, okay, here's what you told us. And I think the first time people were probably more skittish but after they saw that we didn't, there's no penalization. People were rewarded and celebrated for sharing that. We shared the results openly.
00:16:39 Rickesh: And then we said, here's what we're going to do with these things over the next while. Here's the conversations we're going to have. And then we would loop back and update people on the conversations we were having at the proper decision making tables around some of the work. Now, it doesn't mean because someone put someone in a thing in a survey or a conversation that we could do something about all of it. But I think where people struggle is when there's a lack of clarity about what you're doing with it. So not everyone needs to be consulted on everything. In fact, people are bothered by that. It's better for them to know where they're coming in on the cycle.
00:17:06 Rickesh: So it's like, am I coming in a clean slate and you're really going to take all my ideas? Am I coming into something that's 80% baked and you just want some feedback to shape it a little bit more? Or is this decision already made and we just need to be informed about it and how it was done? It's okay. Sometimes you have all those three scenarios happening, but I think a lot of times we go and be like, Oh yeah, we want everyone's feedback and input. Meanwhile, decisions have already been made, work's already been done. And then everyone who gave their feedback, who gave you that gift of truth.
00:17:31 Rickesh: I mean, I share that with management. When I say, here's everything people said, some of the stuff's critical. We're going to look at that. This is a gift. They've given this to you. Do not lose this gift, right? Hold onto this because that means they care enough to actually tell you the real, real. So it's like, this is the kind of stuff where there's a cultural piece around how you accept that feedback and what you do with it and be willing to just take that feedback as a gift and use it like that, and then loop back with people so they know where they're at in the journey.
00:17:57 Rickesh: So I think that's again, where they cause these problems when we over promise the level of input we're looking for. And then we don't do anything with it. Or they're like, so you already decided that like you said, you want to make input on which contractor we should go with, but you already had picked your friend to do this job or whatever.
00:18:12 Maria: You know what's really interesting about this process, that if you do it well, everyone has to be vulnerable. The staff person who is maybe taking a risk, but also the leader, you have to be vulnerable and be open to receive good and bad feedback or feedback that may make you feel defensive, even if it's not meant to be bad. So I think that that's a really interesting thing to try to ask a leader to do when you were saying, like, hold up a mirror to themselves.
00:18:40 Maria: You have to recognize that you're a flawed human being and that's okay. And how do we ensure that that doesn't affect the workplace? But also does that vulnerability lower the lines into like, oh, we're family and like emotional safety, which you should always have emotional safety in any environment, but that like we're vulnerable, we're friends.
00:19:04 Rickesh: Yeah. Well, oftentimes when that also is misused, that vulnerability is misused. There has to be some boundary. We are a workplace. We're not a family and it's just not going to be the case. And so you can be close, you can work well together in the end, your colleagues. Now, sometimes you might be closer as people and you might have better relationships, but in the end as someone we were working with at our organization, [Jilary Massa], it was brilliant. Basically, it's like you're working in a hierarchy. So Rickesh, no matter how nice you think you are, no matter how open you think you are, in the end you're in a hierarchy and that's going to impact this.
00:19:37 Rickesh: So I'm very mindful about vulnerability in the sense of I made a mistake and I'm sorry, I'm going to own up to it, or I messed that up, or I could have done that differently, or here's some things that I'm concerned about or whatever. That thing is one thing, but we can't really give team members emotional labor for us though in that way if you're in a leadership role. That's where I would sort of draw the line because I think that's where it gets a little bit trickier. It's just part of it. In the hierarchy, it's like you're in a leadership role, for example, and you're owning a lot of different things, but I would say think about how much emotional labor you're putting people through when you're sharing stuff with them.
00:20:10 Rickesh: So I think if they saw you saying, oh, we did this project in law. Wow, like that didn't really go the way we thought. And I had a role in that. I'm sorry. And/or we'll figure it out. Like that's different. That's a vulnerability that is modeling what you want to see in the organization. I think that type of vulnerability is okay. But the kind where it's like, I don't think we all sit in there and like crying together and the leaders, all there too. Like, I just don't think that's what I would say is the appropriate type of vulnerability for a leader.
00:20:35 Maria: Yeah, I feel like I've seen similar processes multiple times and I don't know if it's ever been implemented early enough where there is still some trust left. It's like the last, last, last, last step that the organization is now taking to salvage some trust in some culture, but it then becomes a very uphill battle. So I like the vulnerability piece and I think that that's really helpful. And if it's like the right organization, the right leader, I'm sure that they can really strike that balance between professional, vulnerable and vulnerable, where like, no, that's a therapist conversation, not me, someone else. But I do see it as difficult for leaders to do this successfully. So I wanted to ask, for the organizations that you feel have done it well, what do they have in common?
00:21:31 Rickesh: Yeah, definitely leadership presence. I see this a lot and I know you have as well that organizations claiming they want to shift the way they're doing philanthropy, shift the way they're doing their work. They want to take an anti-oppression or justice lens or whatever the case would be. And then the management doesn't show up for the conversations. They don't provide input. I mean, I've been in meetings and they're like on their phone the whole time. And I'm like, then even if you, being here, it's actually probably worse. Better if you just weren't here. It's just saying that I don't care.
00:22:01 Rickesh: So I think that what they've had in common is the leadership that really knows where their place is in this, tries their best to minimize the hierarchical impacts. You can't eliminate them and receive that feedback. Like, let's say you're in a room together and somebody says something that's critical of the leader or that might be perceived as critical for leader, how they react in that exact moment is going to determine how everybody else is going to share that stuff in the future. And so I've seen those organizations where somebody will say something critical and leaders, quick to almost…
00:22:30 Rickesh: They pull out that corporate speak and it's like, well, actually, we're doing this because of… these are the initiatives that we're working on. Like, no, they want… they don't want you to be a robot. They just want you to say, oh, my gosh, thank you for sharing that. I heard you, leave that with me. Let me take that to where it needs to go. Or can I ask some more questions or can we talk about this later? Like, this is important to me as opposed to shutting it down. So one thing that they have in common is that the leader does not shut down that feedback, and especially in public forums.
00:22:56 Rickesh: Then the second thing is they actually go and do something with that feedback and they report it back to people and they share it with people. So people build that trust over time. I mean, one thing I can say, so my really good friend wrote a book recently called Speak Up Culture. His name is Stephen Shedletzky, AKA Shed. And one of the core premises of the book is that, and it's about workplaces, that leaders need to create an environment where it's both safe and worth it to speak up. So I think that that is really a great summary of the kinds of things that, of organizations that are doing this work well is, it's safe in the sense that you don't get penalized for sharing the truth.
00:23:29 Rickesh: How many times have we seen somebody who's sharing something and then all of a sudden a month later, they're not being in meetings, they're being ostracized, they're let go because they spoke the truth. That happens, had dozens of conversations like that in the last couple of years alone. So safe, so you know that whatever I share is not gonna be used against me, like we talked about it, even anonymous surveys. Someone's not trying to hunt down who said this, I need to find out more or penalize them. And then the worth it part means that when I do share, even if it is safe, is something actually going to happen with it. Because sometimes what happens is people are not penalized, but then the feedback doesn't go anywhere on a consistent basis. So I really love that framework.
00:24:04 Rickesh: Now in sort of, let's say, activism and advocacy work, it's not always safe to speak up and you do it anyways, because that's what you've got to do. But generally in workplaces, that's a lot of what they have in common is that there's a culture where people can share things, and also they know that when they share things, it's going to go somewhere.
00:24:20 Maria: Ah, the management piece, like, so good. When an organization that I saw this happen, the manager who was most responsible for the toxicity in the organization just refused to show up to any of the listening sessions, any of the working sessions, refused to participate. So the rest of the management team was present because it's an important process and we want the staff to feel heard. That is very important, not just work-wise, but also people-wise. We're all human. We all deserve to be heard when we're hurt and repair the harm. This person refused to participate, refused to attend.
00:24:56 Maria: And again, it was to the point where this person has caused so much harm at the organizational level that there's almost no trust. We're going through this process because of them. They don't even bother to show up. So yeah, that's a really good point.
00:25:11 Rickesh: Yeah. Also, I think on that same point, Maria, is that if you are the head leader, maybe then also being in the room might also not be desirable for some reason. Might say that it's okay that they just got off the hook, didn't come, but sometimes them being there also changes the dynamics. So then it's like, who is responsible for that person? That's the person that needs to. So yes, this person's problematic. That's, in itself, is an issue, but they're repeatedly causing harm. And then no one's doing anything about it. Then whoever is responsible for that person is now the problem too.
00:25:41 Rickesh: So if you're just sitting there and letting this happen, you can't just be like, well, we're going to show up. But it's like, we know that this person's a problem, right? Do anything about it. Then you're part of it. So that person has to be worked with, put on whatever HR or methodologies you need to use or remove from the organization. Cause as long as that person's there, they're going to keep doing that. And everything almost feels like it's just talk. It's like, so hold on, we're talking about being in a certain way that this person is clearly doing all these things and getting away with it. And nothing's being done about them.
00:26:11 Rickesh: So I wanna share a quote, which I love sharing. It's “The culture of any organization is shaped by the worst behavior the leader is willing to tolerate.” So that is by Steve Gruenert and Todd Whitaker from a book called School Culture Rewired, but it applies to so many environments that it's like, no matter what you say, the weakest link, this behavior, as long as this problematic toxic person is there, it doesn't matter what you say, if nothing is being done about it.
00:26:37 Maria: Yeah, especially at a, no, I was gonna say especially at a leadership level, but I actually don't agree with that. Even if you're a staff person who is acting horribly and you just get allowed to do that. Like it's not okay. It just changes everything. For organizations that do this well, what is the thing that they're trying to understand and get out of the surveys and all this process?
00:27:00 Rickesh: I mean, really the bottom line is just the truth. It's… what we've been talking about is who we say we are and who we want to be lining up with what your actual experiences. So really placing importance and centering people outside of board and leadership on this. And so what they're really just trying to figure out is truth across the organization, that consistency and look for gaps. So again, bottom line is, what they're looking for is, truth. Also what they're looking for is hopefully, genuinely ideas, solutions that are coming from people who are experiencing this on a day-to-day basis.
00:27:36 Rickesh: And so again, being open to that and actually doing something about it is key. But again, in the bottom line, it's really just the truth. And then just because you don't accept it doesn't mean it goes away. So I think that sometimes it's hard for folks, but that's what you're looking for. You're looking for what is your lived experience of being in this organization? What are the things that are going wrong? What would you like to see us doing differently? What are some of the areas we can improve? Where can we invest in you more? Are we investing appropriately in your development and growth? Are you treated properly by board members and donors, for example? Do you feel like when you say something that you're, it's appreciated? Do you feel like when we say something that something is done with it, do you feel like we will turn down donations if the donor is problematic and showing problematic behavior?
00:28:24 Rickesh: So it's like there's qualitative pieces, but also quantitative. So you can actually ask questions on a five point scale, which sounds strange. How can you measure cultural things like that? But you absolutely can. And you can also then see over time, is that changing? So that's another thing you're looking for when you do this stuff is, are we making a difference? And I think in about a year, you actually can, if you really do it right, you can actually make a noticeable difference on the quantitative measures as well.
00:28:48 Maria: I think, oh, how can you measure culture through a survey? That misses the point. You are not understanding that all these small things actually paint a bigger picture. So for example, organizations that don't track their attrition rates, you've had 150% turnover over the past two years, twice. How are you not seeing that there is a big issue instead of looking externally and being like, oh, you know, the great resignation, oh, nonprofits turn over X, Y, and Z. There are these red flags or orange flags that are being present, are being waved, that you can easily just explain away. But you really need to take that opportunity, that gift to actually, like explore that further.
00:29:36 Rickesh: Yeah. I mean, I believe that you could almost feel energy in a room. And I walk into certain workplaces and I'm like, oh wow, the vibe is good. The air is thinner and sweeter. If I can even make any sense at all to anybody who's listening to this, but you could actually feel, you can feel tension. Let's say you can feel tension. You can feel like you can cut it with a knife. I firmly believe that as I'm almost walking into, room that I can see where there's harmony and a space for positive conflict and where everybody's just shutting down and especially this is, the remarkable effect is when the leader walks into the room.
00:30:09 Rickesh: So let's say it's like, and oftentimes, unfortunately, they're walking in just on time or late. I just, again, my observation, I'm not writing off every person who's in a leadership role. There's many amazing ones, but oftentimes I see that happening. And so the tone, if it just changes and shifts, then that tells me a lot of stuff as well. Again, just being in a hierarchy, like I know I'm a teddy bear in many ways, but I know even when I walk into a room, if I'm an ED role or whatever I mean, I know that people just have to feel like they're going to act differently around me. But is it to the point where it's like we're sitting there and everyone is just sort of just closing in on themselves? That also says a lot to you. So surveys tell you some things, but also you can just do a vibe check when you walk in a room.
00:30:48 Maria: Yeah, like the tension in people's bodies and if they like, tense up when someone comes near, that is definitely something that I really deeply believe in. After reading the body keeps the score and you just see it right away. Even like some doing a few, kind of like lymph node exercises lately. Because I get a lot of headaches from stress and from being on the computer. And you just feel the stress in your forehead, on these muscles right here, on your jaw. Sorry, if you're just listening to these mandible muscles, I don't know. But you definitely really, really feel it. And the vibe check, I feel is important because it… just reading people's body language, you can tell that they feel comfortable and aligned with their values.
00:31:31 Rickesh: Absolutely. And we can't also ignore the fact that depending on your identity, you talked about being a person of color or having a disability or not being, basically not being a man. Like there's so many other elements that play that also determine who is allowed to share and be accepted and welcomed and who is not too. So I've also seen that where I see one person speak in the room and it is a white man and everything they say is gold. And then I see a brown woman speak up and it's like clearly being written off, undermined.
00:32:02 Rickesh: So that's the kind of stuff that if I'm in a room and I observe that kind of stuff, by the way, I will share that with the management team. Say, did you know that this was happening? Did you know that this is the dynamic? This is what you're doing in a very kind of way, as I could to say, it's very clear whose opinion you value and whose you don't. And they're gonna do with that what they will. They're probably one of three reactions. One is, oh my gosh, just tell me more about that. I'd like to do something different, which is the one I want, hope for. The other like, oh, not really. Like I didn't see that happening. It's not a big deal. Or they'll just like, completely backlash at me and be like, how dare you say that? I am not racist. I don't see color. I… women are, I value women equally or whatever the kind of stuff.
00:32:43 Rickesh: And I've had that happen, too. So, I mean, the good thing for me, coming in from outside the organization, especially if people know anything, hopefully about these that I'm not there to serve management. When I'm doing any of my work, I clearly say I'm not here to just, even if you're paying to do this work. I'm not here to serve management. I'm here to get our overall organizational picture. And if you're not ready for me to share with you some of the harder things, then it's okay. We don't have to work together. And so I try to even assess that before I even work with somebody is like, are they going to really be open or just telling me they are?
00:33:15 Rickesh: And that's, it's hard. It's hard for folks. This is really hard, really hard work to do on a personal level. So I acknowledge that, but you have to be open. So all this stuff we're talking about with management, if they're in their ego, if they're not open, if they're not going to receive that feedback. And also this identity piece, like even if I bring that to their attention, they react poorly. I'm just like, okay, I don't know that this is the kind of work I'm going to be equipped to do. I know my place too, that you have some other work to do before you work with me, because I'm not here to coach you on how you're interacting with people from different backgrounds and identities. That's got some other deeper work that there's other people better suited to do that work with you. And then we can talk.
00:33:53 Maria: I feel like this work requires such a high level of emotional intelligence. And like maybe not everybody has or even if they do, everybody's so burnt out. So it just has to be done so intentionally to like, I'm gonna spend a good amount of my energy on this today or like even what you were saying, like with the budget, if you're using your emotional bank, I had to put this much brain power into it to like make the best out of the situation, but I think it's very, very needed.
00:34:25 Rickesh: You identify and this is where we always want to talk about individual level, organizational level and systems level. So what you're describing too is that systems piece where we just have too much to do, not enough to do. And I don't like to be defeatist by the way, like I am ultimately an optimist at heart, but I also want to be real about it. It's not, it wouldn't be a surprise to anybody to say that we're trying to do a lot with a little and that's been a flawed scarcity mindset that we've adopted and reinforced ourselves for so long. And so when you put people in that position, they're going to get burned out. They're not going to create space for this stuff because they just don't feel that there's the time or that it's worth it.
00:34:57 Rickesh: Like I got to raise this much money or I've got to deliver this many programs. I can't spend this time doing all these conversations with people and checking in with people and assessing how they're doing and how they feel about the organization. But I know it's hard to see that as a value add because it's probably not showing up on some kind of KPI or whatever dashboard or something like that. And again, that's something that I do also recommend is that anything that's of strategic importance, find some way to measure it, it is possible. So even having the average scores of employee engagement as a KPI or a miscellaneous measure as part of your ongoing work so that you can see what's happening with it.
00:35:31 Rickesh: Like you said, attrition rate of employees, like those things should be front and center. And then people wonder why people keep leaving and they can't maintain organizational intelligence, why they can't move forward, why the culture is so poor, because we're just, it's not a systems piece too. A lot of this is imposed on us. So I do feel for people in leadership roles, even ones that I've seen who are very well intentioned, very awesome humans, I know them. And they just are like, Rickesh, I can't even feel, like I can't even put you half an hour to what you're describing. So we can figure out ways, but that's the starting point for a lot of folks.
00:36:02 Maria: For my type of leadership, I feel like that's one of the most important things. I have to have a half hour with you every week or every other week, just so I can make sure that you have everything that you need, your life is still going okay. You don't, oh man, I'll give this example. It has nothing to do with fundraising, but I used to manage ushers and supervise, I think it was like 30 ushers at Canada's Wonderland, which is a theme park in Vaughan near us. And one time, one of my ushers had gotten punched in the face by a guest and was bleeding. And I didn't know because we didn't have a way of communicating. They were just at one part of the park and I was going usher by usher. And they stayed there the whole time.
00:36:46 Maria: So there was no opportunity for them to ask me, like, can I leave? Can I take a break? Can I go get first aid? Can I X, Y, and Z? And they felt like maybe they would have been in trouble if they did that. So that taught me so much about, like the kind of leader that I want to be and I want people to know that I am. I trust you to make the best decision possible for yourself, for the team, for your health. And I want you to know that you can tell me if something is going on, either because I'm doing it, maybe there was a reason he just stood there or because you think like the rules that the organization are keeping you from doing that.
00:37:22 Maria: It's such a small thing, but it just, like really stood with me because the person was bleeding and just standing there like following the rules instead of, like using their common sense to be like, well, I have to go get some medical help. And they just want everyone that I manage and I support to feel that I trust them to make the best decision for themselves.
00:37:45 Rickesh: Hmm, 100%. I mean, people always say, how come people aren't loyal to us? How come they're not loyal to our organization? How come they don't trust us? I mean, honestly, it's got to start with the employer that the whole dynamic of you're just lucky you have a job with us. That I still feel and see that from a lot of organizations just lucky to have a job with us. And as soon as you do that, you've already set that tone. And so it's like, no, we're gonna do things like pay you for interviews, we're going to do things like find ways to increase your salary and increase in professional development, we're going to address the problems that you bring forward. Rather than someone, even in our organizations, how many people are metaphorically bleeding right now and just feel like they can't say anything?
00:38:20 Rickesh: I mean, a lot of that is also dictated by their past experiences. I've had people who really had something happen to them that I would have loved that they had shared it in the moment that it happened. I understand that that's not always what you feel like is viable or safe to do, I get it. And then they shared with us when they were leaving, because in past experiences, they've been penalized for sharing the kinds of things that they did. So they're like, I'm not even gonna say this until I leave the organization, because that's what's happened in other orgs.
00:38:43 Rickesh: So a lot of, even those folks, like your colleague that you described, may have had those experiences in other organizations where they hurt themselves or they were sick and they were just chastised for not coming to work or not pushing through or whatever you want to call it. So a lot of this is also inherited from just other orgs and the way they're operating too.
00:39:00 Maria: I love that question of like, how many of our colleagues are metaphorically bleeding and not saying anything. I think that really hits home and I'm sure that it will for a lot of our audience. So I'm so thankful to have you here today. Is there any last thing that you want to share with our audience?
00:39:16 Rickesh: Well, thank you for having me. I think I'm having a lot of conversations with folks these days who are feeling very disillusioned and disheartened, burnt out, critical of the sector, whatever you want to call it. And what I'm just really encouraging folks to do is it's not selfish to take care of yourself. It's not selfish. These causes, these issues are decades and centuries in the making, and they're going to take decades and centuries to undo. Unfortunately, I'm impatient about it. And so we need people to be here for the long game. So I've been saying that to folks. What is it going to take for you to say in 30 years, 40 or whatever part you're on in your career, that you're still able to do this work, but you're passionate about what's going to allow that to happen.
00:39:54 Rickesh: So I just want to encourage people to say if you're facing struggles and the answer isn't always to leave your organization, that's always something I say if it's possible to do that. And so how can you find a way to make it work? But it's not just on us individuals too. So, I mean, there has to be pressure on anyone in a leadership role. I want to say you got to create those environments organizationally, we always have to be pushing against the system. But the core message I would say to anyone listening now is it's not selfish to take care of you and do what's right for you. You're not being a bad person, even if you feel like you're not serving your cause. Trust me, you're serving your cause by serving yourself, too.
00:40:26 Maria: I love that. Okay, and how can people get in touch with you if they want to continue the conversation?
00:40:32 Rickesh: On all social media platforms, I'm pretty much only on LinkedIn now. So you can find me on LinkedIn. You see my spelling of my name. And also you can go to radianceadvisory.com and just learn a little bit more about some of the work I'm aiming to do and how to get in touch and even book a meeting if you want to chat, no strings attached.
00:40:48 Maria: Okay, great. Well, thank you so much for being here again. And thank you all for listening to this episode of The Small Nonprofit Podcast. I hope that you all got a lot out of this conversation thinking about how we can better engage our staff and some tools that we can kind of provide so they feel heard and what you can do with that to change your culture, change your values, and actually live off to those values. So thank you again for joining us. And until next time, bye for now.
00:41:23 Maria: Thank you for listening to another episode of The Small Nonprofit. If you want to continue the conversation, feel free to connect with our guests directly or find me on LinkedIn. Let's keep moving money to mission and prioritizing our well-being. Bye for now.
