Building Equity-Driven Nonprofits with Carmen Randolph

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In this episode of The Small Nonprofit Podcast, Maria interviews Carmen Randolph, the CEO and President of the Women’s Foundation of the South (WFS). Carmen shares her insights into the unique challenges faced by nonprofits in the Southern United States, especially those led by and serving women and girls of color. The conversation covers the historical and systemic issues affecting philanthropy in the South, the growing legal challenges against organizations that prioritize marginalized communities, and the importance of trust-based philanthropy. 

Carmen emphasizes the need for Southern nonprofits to diversify their funding sources, engage in proactive donor education, and prepare for potential legal challenges in the wake of recent shifts in U.S. policy and law. 

Key Episode Highlights: 

• Philanthropy in the Southern U.S.: Learn about the unique challenges faced by Southern nonprofits, including underfunding, systemic racism, and the impact of the region's historical context on philanthropic efforts. 

• Legal Challenges and Affirmative Action: Carmen discusses recent lawsuits targeting organizations that focus on racial equity, particularly those led by people of color, and the importance of legal preparedness for nonprofits in this new landscape. 

• Trust-Based Philanthropy: Understand how WFS and similar organizations are adopting trust-based philanthropy to support nonprofits more effectively, emphasizing trust in grantees’ expertise and reducing unnecessary administrative burdens. 

• Donor Education and Engagement: Explore how nonprofits can engage donors proactively in the face of increasing legal and political challenges, ensuring continued support for marginalized communities. 

• Diversifying Funding Sources: Carmen advises nonprofits to look at their work through multiple lenses to attract diverse funding streams and reduce reliance on any single source of support. 

Quotable Moments: 

• "Women and girls of color receive the smallest share of philanthropic investment in the U.S., and we are seeking to change that trend." 

• "This is a moment where we cannot afford to be asleep at the wheel." 

Actionable Tips: 

➜ Engage in Legal Preparedness: Nonprofits should conduct legal reviews of their operations and documents to prepare for potential lawsuits, especially those focused on racial equity. 

➜ Proactively Educate Donors: Engage donors about the importance of continued support for marginalized communities and the potential challenges your organization may face due to shifting legal landscapes. 

➜ Diversify Funding Streams: Look at your nonprofit's work through various lenses to attract funding from different sources. 

Resources Mentioned: 

• Women’s Foundation of the South Website 

• Shift the South Report

Connect with Us: 

• Connect with Maria 

• Connect with Carmen

Subscribe and Review: 

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Next Episode Teaser: 

Join us next week as we dive into a conversation on effective communications with Kathryn LeBlanc! Don’t miss it! 

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Maria: Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the Small Nonprofit Podcast. Today I have a pretty interesting guest that I feel like if you're not actively in major gifts or planned giving or foundations, you might not get to talk to donors. So today I have brought one to talk to you. So I'm really excited to bring on this person who I've worked with in the past as a fundraiser and who I felt has done a lot to kind of move their foundation along when it comes to trust-based philanthropy.

[00:00:29] Maria: So Juliana. Hi, welcome. 

[00:00:32] Juliana: Hi, thank you. 

[00:00:33] Maria: Juliana, just for people who might not know you, could you introduce yourself to our audience? 

[00:00:39] Juliana: Sure. 

[00:00:40] Juliana: so my name is Juliana Sprott, and I am the Chief Giving Officer of my family's, private foundation, the Sprott Foundation. I had previously worked in sports broadcasting, and when I finished a season in the NFL, I thought to [00:01:00] myself, this is incredibly stressful, like you literally work for the entire season, seven days a week.

[00:01:07] Juliana: And I came home from Jacksonville and I said to my mom, you know, I don't know that this is really the right thing for me. And my mom said, well, you know, we have this funny little family foundation and I don't know if there's anything there. But why don't you take a few months and see, If you think you could make a little job out of this She handed me a bankers box with like handwritten check logs and probably a thousand envelopes of donation requests.

[00:01:35] Juliana: And as I started to, learn about philanthropy and our family's, financial status. Like we were so blessed to be able to give away money. I was like, Holy smokes. Like there's a real job here, not just a little hobby. And so I threw myself into it. I, took a course through, the philanthropy workshop, which was created by the Rockefeller [00:02:00] foundation. And that was in 2005, that I started. And here we are in 2024 and going strong. 

[00:02:11] Maria: That's awesome. And just for some context for our American listeners, the Sprott foundation. Oh, I don't know if you do anything there. Sorry, Juliana for assuming, but it's really well known in Canada as a big philanthropist name.

[00:02:23] Maria: So I wonder growing up, did you get a peek into what was going on philanthropy-wise, were you included in that, or how did that feel like growing up? 

[00:02:35] Juliana: Well, you know, we weren't particularly well off early in my life. My mother was born in a refugee camp during the second world war.

[00:02:46] Juliana: So she came over to Canada when she was four and my dad was raised in, a very middle class, family in Ottawa. So in the early days of my life, we were just making our way in the world. And then as it turns out, [00:03:00] my dad happens to be exceptionally gifted, at investing. And so in 1988, my parents decided to create this little family foundation.

[00:03:10] Juliana: But it was just sort of things that held their interest, like, oh, let's give a little bit to this, a little bit to this. It was not particularly strategic. what I will say though, is that volunteerism was always a huge part of our family. My dad was a volunteer with, Big Brothers, my mother volunteered at our school library because she got her degree in library sciences and English, my sister and I, volunteered all the way through high school, way more before, well, first of all, they didn't have the 40 hours that you now need, but we volunteered every week, at different places. So, although, check writing at that time was not the primary focus, volunteerism certainly was. And then they just sort of did the, Sprott foundation from my mom's bookstore's basement [00:04:00] until I came in on the scene and I was like, wait a minute, I think we can be really strategic and make something, quite wonderful here.

[00:04:09] Maria: So how has the foundation changed over the past 10 years? 

[00:04:14] Juliana: Well. we, it started off really with my parents meeting people and becoming enthusiastic about causes and then writing a check and sort of walking away. And, that's a very traditional way of giving, right?

[00:04:29] Juliana: Like that's sort of the older model of philanthropy. And when I started with the foundation, I learned about site visits, and I learned about connecting with our grantees, and I learned about collaboration, and I learned about being an ally. So I would say we've shifted from simply writing checks, to actually wanting to be involved.

[00:04:51] Juliana: Many of our grantees have my cell phone number. They can text me and we text back and forth and we [00:05:00] have, well, it's still a professional relationship. we're human. Right. I would say that's. Some of the bigger shifts is actually becoming more actively involved with our grantees and really connecting with them and listening to them what do you need?

[00:05:14] Juliana: What can we do to best support you?

[00:05:17] Maria: And I think that's something that maybe not a lot of family foundations do, like sometimes they have a middle person gatekeeper. Like a community foundation. So you don't actually ever get to interact with the person who's interested in supporting your cause and who is actively supporting your cause.

[00:05:34] Maria: So when I worked with you, I always found that very nice that you were very present, very involved. Like I wasn't just talking to Megan, who again is lovely and, does a lot of the operational side of it. But I was also interacting with you. 

[00:05:48] Juliana: No, no way, man. 

[00:05:52] Maria: Yeah, you were very interested in talking to the people who were actually the frontline people doing the work. Like you spent a lot of time talking to our [00:06:00] community chef, who is awesome. but I wonder what are other ways that you integrate the values of trust-based philanthropy Into your giving and into the Sprott Foundation as a whole?

[00:06:12] Juliana: Well, I would say, okay, so we've got a major, food price crisis in this, country happening right now. Right? So if I have a group that approaches me and says, look man, you know, we used to serve 101 hundred and 20 people a week. We're now up to 600. we need help.

[00:06:30] Juliana: We need help here. I believe, like my stance is. Believe them, first of all. Do not make life arduous, like prove it to me. No. Okay. How can I help? And so, for example, if they say, Well, we could really use money just to get more food in because we're dealing with this surge in people. Well, yeah. Okay, done.

[00:06:54] Juliana: if that's what is going to help you to run your program, more efficiently and, not really have [00:07:00] to turn people away, hopefully, right? That's what we're going to do. we're not going to, make it more complicated than it needs to be.

[00:07:10] Juliana: Like, I trust our charities to know what do they need. Where are your challenges? I am not there day in and day out. I can't stand micromanaging, quite frankly. I find it annoying. So, okay, you need this? Okay, I believe you.

[00:07:29] Maria: I'm sure a lot of people appreciate that. It's not like, oh, you need the budget in whichever template you give me. No, no. Literally, for the amount of, like, I have filled out, like, 400 page applications for 400, 000. 

[00:07:46] Juliana: we actually have said, and I do stick to this, is like, please, one to two pages.

[00:07:53] Juliana: what's the amount, what's it going towards? we don't need Pages and pages of [00:08:00] papers audited financial statements because that's, you know, sort of standard in terms of reporting, it's like, look, why don't you just take whosoever's name you were going to send the letter to and put our name in and if you need to change a couple of numbers because the gift amount was different, let's go with that.

[00:08:18] Juliana: But we, I can't stand these stupid reports. They just end up on shelves and quite frankly, it takes up the time and resources of the people working at the charity where their time would be much better spent doing something else. 

[00:08:33] Maria: you mentioned briefly, the. A course that you did. Can you tell our audience a little bit about that and how that shaped your thinking if it did? 

[00:08:41] Juliana: Sure. Oh my gosh, it was absolutely transformative. So, it's, the name has changed now. It's Forward Global, but when I took it, it was called the Philanthropy Workshop and it was created by the Rockefeller Foundation.

[00:08:58] Juliana: When I took [00:09:00] this program we went to New York, London, England, and then we had a trip abroad, and essentially we were with them for one week at a time, where we would talk about or learn about things like a mandate. What's a mandate? What do you want to focus on? there's Such a plethora of, good causes, right?

[00:09:23] Juliana: Focus in. And then within that, what do you want to tackle within that? So, you know, they use the example of you can focus your giving more upstream, like what are the root causes of hunger, or you can focus your funding more downstream, such as we're going to feed people tonight. We're not super concerned with why or how they became hungry, but we acknowledge that they're hungry tonight.

[00:09:51] Juliana: And so that's what we're going to focus on. And so the philanthropy workshop introduced us to site visits and good [00:10:00] questions to ask and building rapport. And, you know, I've now been all over the world with them. I've, got to go down to New Orleans, not long after Katrina and really see the impact there.

[00:10:15] Juliana: We've been to Brazil. You know, I've been to Scotland with them. Like there's all these very, very interesting trips and they're all based around being a philanthropist and having the most impact. And how do you do that? And they cover every topic under the sun. I don't go on all of them because they don't deal with what I deal with.

[00:10:37] Juliana: But for example, there's one coming up in September to Greenland. How random, right? But I'm sure it's going to be fantastic for those people who focus on climate change.

[00:10:50] Maria: Okay, so they're kind of themed, but they're all about becoming better partners to the organization that you're. working with, partnering, serving. 

[00:10:58] Juliana: Yeah. And they, what [00:11:00] is interesting about them as well is that when you go on these immersion journeys, they take you places you would normally never, ever get to go.

[00:11:11] Juliana: So for example, when we were in Brazil, we went into the favelas and we actually met with people and I'm not talking about a zoo, It was highly interactive. We got to learn about what got you into this. Like, how come you're part of this gang and what are you doing?

[00:11:29] Juliana: And of course, there's always philanthropy attached to it, where it's like, Well, I used to be in a gang, but I now run a taekwondo program. So that kids after school aren't going into the streets, they're choosing to come to this taekwondo program instead. we got to meet with, HIV positive prostitutes and we had very, very interesting, conversations, with them because it's a demographic of people that I would not normally have the opportunity to speak with, but I found it absolutely [00:12:00] incredible.

[00:12:01] Maria: I think it's so easy on the like, philanthropic side to kind of forget, like, these are real people who are going through unique stories. And even like on the fundraising side, like, you kind of see the numbers like, Oh, yeah, we had to feed this many people, or we have to house this many people but you don't get to hear directly about their lived experience in a way that they want to share it with you.

[00:12:26] Maria: I really like that about the program. who teaches the program? Is it kind of funders helping each other along or is it they bring in specialists? 

[00:12:33] Juliana: No, they have staff, right? And so there's, typically three or four staff that, guide discussions and conversations, right?

[00:12:42] Juliana: But then when you go on the site visits, it gets turned over to the person running that particular program. So when we were in Scotland, we got to meet with members of the community, around a youth violence program. let me [00:13:00] be clear youth violence prevention.

[00:13:03] Juliana: And so the people from, Forward Global would then take a back seat. They would do some introductions. They might mediate a little bit, but it was really then over to the people from that community to speak with us and us to speak with them and ask questions and just have a conversation.

[00:13:18] Maria: And is that how you met Dan Pallotta? Like through the course, 

[00:13:21] Juliana: Yeah, no, I met him when I was in New York very early in my, philanthropic learning, and I don't think I really appreciated what he was talking about because it was so new for me, right?

[00:13:35] Juliana: Whereas there was other people who had been Being active philanthropists for, you know, 5, 10, 15 years that really grasped how significant it was to meet this guy. Whereas for me, you know, I was like, okay, it was so much information trying to learn. It's a very steep, uphill, curve at the beginning that, if I were to meet him again [00:14:00] now, we'd be best friends.

[00:14:05] Maria: And just for our audience, in case they don't know who Dan Pallotta is, maybe you could give us a little intro. 

[00:14:11] Juliana: Sure. So he wrote a book called Uncharitable. There's also a movie, that came out, it is excellent. It summarizes, the book Uncharitable quite well and what he speaks about is the old model of philanthropy like the historical roots of it, being from the Puritan era and how now we as philanthropists need to, say, Hey, you know what?

[00:14:41] Juliana: That's not really current, like that doesn't really work for us anymore. And that there are, new, better ways to, be a philanthropist. for an example, he talks a lot about, administrative expenses and how, you know, there's always been that, Oh my [00:15:00] God, we can't possibly pay for administrative expenses.

[00:15:02] Juliana: And, you know, like if you work for a charity, you should be able to survive on the, Most minimum of minimum wages because it would be gauche to pay you well and that is so wrong It's just ridiculous. And so he was one of the first people I ever met that I said Hey, does that make sense to you?

[00:15:23] Juliana: Does it make sense that we underpay or you know have this weird? guilt, like, oh, well, we shouldn't be paying people who work for charity, like that doesn't, that makes absolutely no sense. And so I will admit to you that when I started with the foundation, there was that resistance, but it was based on these antique, views that, oh, no, well, if you work for a charity, you know, really offside to pay that person a good wage.

[00:15:52] Juliana: But in fact, that that's not correct. You know, if, if you want really high quality people, you have to pay them. and so he gives the example that it's [00:16:00] actually in many cases better for a guy who has skills and talents to work in the for profit sector, give a donation and not be underpaid, right, than to go that route.

[00:16:15] Juliana: Although having that person work for a charity would be a godsend, right? we now are not opposed to administrative expenses. We understand that in order to operate a charity with the best people, you got to pay them. That's just, that's, that's very logical. 

[00:16:39] Maria: so logical. It sucks because like some people don't get it right and I I get why they don't get it They're not living braining the world every single day But like I made this post a while ago on my linkedin I don't know if you saw it, but it was basically like why are we under investing in our staff in our Like risk [00:17:00] taking like maybe we could be setting up like ways of funding ourselves Why are we using chairs that are older than our staff?

[00:17:06] Maria: You know their computers are older than our staff like it makes no sense like if you want To actually change the world, like we actually need to resource a lot of these aspects. 

[00:17:20] Juliana: It's time for a shift away from this nonsense that, if you work in the third sector you shouldn't get well paid. That's just, it's, it's Ridiculous.

[00:17:33] Juliana: I agree with you about the furniture and all this, like, oh my god, heaven forbid that someone has an ergonomically correct chair where they can sit and feel productive. You know, no, let's stick them with this stupid, plastic chair from 1955. Like, why? What is that accomplishing?

[00:17:51] Juliana: what does that prove? 

[00:17:53] Maria: Zero. Oh, you know what? One of my, clients, their E. D. sent me this article, [00:18:00] which I love now, uh, so the E. D. of the North York Harvest Food Bank sent me this article that said, like, I put a fountain in my non profit building because I believe that the people who use my services deserve a nice place to stay.

[00:18:16] Maria: You know, they also equally deserve a fountain, and it might seem like a really big luxury, but you know, why do we treat people who are experiencing poverty or experiencing, you know, any sort of difficult illness or anything like that as if they deserve less when it comes to being in these spaces and like, Really, you know, falling apart.

[00:18:39] Juliana: There's no AC or something like that. It's just, it really stuck with me this piece about, like, I want the best for, for my service users, for my staff, because they deserve that. Like, they deserve that. That's right. the notion that, the people that work in the third sector [00:19:00] should, be relegated to crappy furniture, crappy spaces.

[00:19:04] Maria: Yeah. So I want to kind of explore this a little bit deeper with you when it comes to the donor perspective and also the fundraiser perspective. So what can a donor do if they feel like their fundraiser partner or ED partner at the nonprofit isn't getting it. Like, Hey, I want you to spend more admin costs, or, you know, I don't want you to whine and die in me.

[00:19:26] Maria: Like, what can they do to kind of like, let that person understand that? 

[00:19:31] Juliana: So, if we meet up with, a charity, and they're hesitant to bring up administrative expenses as something that they'd like as part of the donation, I just say to them, you tell us where the funding needs to go, It goes back to what we were chatting about earlier, which is I believe you, 

[00:19:55] Juliana: and that's of course the another new model of [00:20:00] this trust-based philanthropy right where it's like I, I believe that you know what you need more than I do because I'm not there every day. And so, I would rather that, a charity say to me, look, we're, our, our desks are falling apart. Look at that one's being held together with duct tape.

[00:20:21] Juliana: You know, We'd like to allocate 5, 000 to the purchase of some new office furniture. because it makes the workplace more pleasurable for you to come into right like God if you walked into a place where it was Duct tape tables every day.

[00:20:40] Juliana: It's like jeez. This is not supremely inspiring 

[00:20:46] Maria: Yeah, absolutely I find like sometimes you have fundraisers who fit ourselves into that box and feel like you can't Talk to the donor about that because they don't want to fund it I have a colleague whose shelter [00:21:00] in front of the shelter, there was like sidewalk that had been raised up and it was actually a little bit dangerous if you're not paying attention, but they were kind of scared to ask people to fund this because who wants to pay for pavement, you know, they don't want to fund that they want to find something that's like sexier in their eyes, right?

[00:21:17] Maria: actually supporting people. what would you say to a fundraiser that's kind of scared to have this conversation with a donor? Who might not get it. Well, I've 

[00:21:27] Juliana: been thinking about this. Okay. And I've thought to myself, yes, having that conversation could be frightening. I get that because, well, I mean, the worst thing they can say is no.

[00:21:42] Juliana: So really. You know, might as well have it. But, I was speaking at an event a while back and I said to them, to some of the people that were fundraisers in the room, I was like, you know what, you guys should just put a 20 percent [00:22:00] allocation of the gift towards admin. And they were kind of like, Oh my God.

[00:22:04] Juliana: And I was like, no, just do it. Put it in the fricking donor agreement. Like we have an automatic 20% Of this gift going to admin and there was kind of murmuring and I was like okay fine if your chicken's about 20 percent then go for 15 go for 10 but go for something and you know what there are some charities that are starting to do that where it is baked into the donor agreement and I think that's the workaround you know like look man this is just we need this money to pay our staff a living wage to have a presentable Nice place to work just like everybody else and if the donor comes back and is like hey, man That's outrageous.

[00:22:54] Juliana: Okay, fine. Let's negotiate. You don't want 20%? Okay, how about 15%? We need something. We need [00:23:00] some percentage of this gift to go towards admin because we simply can't do this without that. 

[00:23:08] Maria: I love what you said about negotiating because a lot of the times charities don't feel Like they bring enough to the table to negotiate, but I see that always as an issue because like you're not treating that person as a partner in the work.

[00:23:22] Maria: You're treating yourself as subservient and you're not like we're all coming into this together to make that change in the community. 

[00:23:29] Juliana: Well, can you imagine if the charities. Across this country, banded together and said, henceforth, there is going to be a 20 percent automatic allocation of any gift to admit and that way, if, some donors like, well, fine, then I'm not going to give to you guys.

[00:23:54] Juliana: Well, no problem, Guess what? This is standard operating procedure now for all [00:24:00] of us. So, if you don't like that we have 20 percent going to admin, okay, well, you can go to the next charity down the street. Guess what? They have it as well. And guess what? The next guy has it as well. Because, you know, Oh my God, Twisted Sister, we're not going to take it anymore.

[00:24:16] Juliana: You know, we're not going to take it anymore. We're going to come together as a community, and we're going to agree on a percentage. I mean, I said 20, but, you know, if the group decided that that was too much, that might scare off donors, okay, we'll fine, pick 10. And it then becomes the norm. And once it becomes the norm, the pushback will cease, because this is the norm.

[00:24:43] Juliana: What we've decided as a community is fair and right in order to pay our people a living wage, so on and so forth, all those things that we've already talked about. But how great would that be, if there was a call to action amongst the 86, 000 charities in this country, [00:25:00] where this is The new amount, 5%, 10%, 15%, 20%, whatever you guys decide, and we are going to link arms and hold fast, and if someone pushes back, they can take their check down the street to the next guy, but it's going to be the same.

[00:25:23] Juliana: Have you heard of a nonprofit 

[00:25:24] Maria: industrial complex? Okay, basically, it's nonprofits exist to solve a problem, but we're also getting our money from those sources of problems, right? So you can't really criticize the government because they're funding you and they're the causing the problem. So you're then forced to build up your brand to kind of like survive so you can solve the problem, but you're not actually solving the problem.

[00:25:50] Maria: I said the problem like seven times. Yeah. we ended up being in such competition with each other. [00:26:00] And supporting our communities. But yes, we get to establish our brand and grow our non profit and, you know, all those things. But there is a problem across the country of like, non profits not banding together, not working together.

[00:26:13] Juliana: I feel like we could have done a lot more to improve the sector Well, and don't you think that on this one topic, You're going to get cohesion. You know what I mean? If we start talking about, you know, a number of people served, we start splitting weird hairs. I genuinely believe that on this one matter, you could get alignment.

[00:26:40] Juliana: And so, yeah, you might have the odd guy that's like, Oh, no, we're not going to do that. but I think that if the majority got together and said, it's like gasoline prices, yeah, they differ a little bit here and there. But by and large, it's not like you're going to walk down the street and it's going to [00:27:00] be, massively different prices.

[00:27:02] Juliana: So. I think that on this one topic, there could be universal buy in. 

[00:27:13] Maria: Okay, so I have some final thoughts for our audience. So if you're a fundraiser, don't be scared to have conversations with your donors about the things that you need. something that is admin based, added to your contracts, your donor agreements.

[00:27:26] Maria: And maybe do some additional donor education if they don't understand why you prefer unrestricted versus restricted giving. one more thing that you said during our prescreening call that I would love to touch on is the recognition piece. Because for me, I've never understood it from your perspective that you mentioned before, because I was like, why would you want your name on a building?

[00:27:52] Maria: Like, I don't understand. like, I don't get it. Right? Like, I don't understand why someone would do that. But then you said something that really clicked for [00:28:00] me. And I'd love for you to say it today. Sure. 

[00:28:01] Juliana: So, I believe that there are various reasons for wanting recognition, and one could be, hey, I earned this money.

[00:28:12] Juliana: I'm giving it to this. This is a reflection of my hard work, right? Like, I want my name on it. and that's more the ego piece, right? But that's okay, because the people who are doing this, they have worked really hard, right? they've worked so hard that they have extra that they can give away.

[00:28:29] Juliana: The second part for me, Especially because of where we fund, which is homelessness and hunger. There is a gross misconception that the government is some sort of benevolent, let me take care of all you people, like don't worry, the government's got you. No, no. That is fundamentally incorrect. 

[00:28:53] Juliana: Okay, so when I started with the foundation it was always like, oh no, let's just be anonymous. Let's do it in the background, And I was [00:29:00] like, are you kidding me? People are going to these homeless shelters and to these food banks and they think that the government of Canada, government of Ontario, government of City of Toronto is paying for this.

[00:29:11] Juliana: They are not. They are not. This is our family, because we genuinely care. We believe that fresh healthy food is a basic human right. We want the people going to these places to have access to that. And it is our little group making this work with our grantee. And so for me, the recognition is to say, hey, there is a family out there that really cares about you guys.

[00:29:37] Juliana: Like we, we genuinely want you to thrive. We want you to be. It is not the government. It is not.

[00:29:53] Maria: Also, I feel like for people who are another family, maybe getting a tour, like they get to say, Oh, these [00:30:00] people I know. 

[00:30:00] Juliana: Yeah. That's another part. I know that, We have now got a very solid reputation, as being easy to work with, taking on risky, projects that may or may not fail, and trust me, we've had lots of failures, that's okay.

[00:30:19] Juliana: We embrace risk and we have a very good reputation, in the indigenous community. And so when other funders see our name, attached to certain projects, it's like, okay, well, if Sprott is on board, then, Those guys actually know what they're doing. 

[00:30:40] Maria: That sounds really good. You've worked really hard. So that's great. 

[00:30:44] Juliana: Yeah, we've had many, you know, the evolution of our family foundation went from, writing these little checks in the basement of my mom's bookstore to where [00:31:00] we are now, where our name is, all over the place, like many kitchens in the city of Toronto have our name on it.

[00:31:06] Juliana: And we have a very good reputation of, being, good allies and collaborators with our grantees. And that to me is very, very important.

[00:31:19] Maria: Are there any final thoughts that you would leave funders with? So let's say some ED's listening to this episode and they send it to a funder. Anything that you think that they can kind of take away as actionable things to do? 

[00:31:32] Juliana: Well, yes. if you're the funder and you think, oh, I'm going to give to this charity, you must believe them when they tell you where they need the funds spent.

[00:31:47] Juliana: It is not up to you to say well, I think you need it here. No, that's being a puppet master. And the people that work at the charity day in and day [00:32:00] out know full well where the funds are needed. So please, respect what they're telling you. Believe what they're telling you. And get out of the way. Let them do the work that you've chosen them.

[00:32:14] Juliana: You've chosen to have a meeting with them. You think it's a good cause. Don't now walk in and say, well, I hear you. When you say you need money for program A, I want to give to program B. They don't need money for program B. Program B is, you know, smooth sailing here. They're telling you they need money for program A.

[00:32:39] Juliana: Believe them. that's what I would say and again, with the administrative expenses, you know, if they say, hey, we want to be, this is going to be baked into the contract because we can't do our work without this, then leave them. That's what they need. We all want to be believed, right? [00:33:00] You know, I'm not going into the bank and second guessing them.

[00:33:03] Juliana: They're like, this is, this is how it works, da, da, da. I'm not like, well, I don't know about that. I'm not going into the grocery store or the nail salon or the hairdresser and the hairdresser says to me, well, you know, this is the dye that we're going to use on your hair. and these are the scissors that I'm going to use to cut your hair.

[00:33:22] Juliana: Oh, I don't know about that. You know, I think you should use these scissors. Like what? No, he or she knows what they're doing. If I want my hair, this beautiful platinum blonde, I know he has to use a certain dye number. And so for me to go in there and then question him and say, well, I don't believe you, I'm going to end up with like orange hair.

[00:33:43] Maria: Okay. my God. So I, this conversation with my hairdresser, sometimes some people, it's like, It's like if you were told by your manager that you have to use Kool Aid on every client and you're like, no, I [00:34:00] shouldn't use Kool Aid for hair dye. You have to. She's like, wow, that's bad. I'm like, I know. 

[00:34:08] Juliana: One of the benefits, one of the interesting aspects of being a philanthropist is that it's actually not your money. Okay, it's not your money. You've made it and you've been given a tax break, but it is your responsibility. You have the opportunity to steward it however you want, right?

[00:34:30] Juliana: but it is the public's money. Ultimately, so if it's the public's money and you've chosen charity X, Y, Z to give that money to, then why in the world would you start second guessing them, right?

[00:34:52] Maria: Thank you so much for sharing all your insight with us today. I am so happy to have you on and. You know, a lot of, donors might not be [00:35:00] thinking this way, or I feel like a lot of them are since 2020 at a minimum, but I'm just really happy to have your perspective here for everyone who's maybe afraid to have these conversations with.

[00:35:10] Maria: for our partners or, you know, for any funders out there who are like, how do I talk about this with my charitable partners? 

[00:35:18] Juliana: Well, and how about this? If they were to say right up front, just to let you know, this is our new model. We have this already in the donor agreement. The conversation can be very short and then nobody's time is wasted with the dog and pony show.

[00:35:33] Juliana: Right? Like, just to let you know, this is how we do things around here. Oh, you don't like it. Okay. Bye. No problem. 

[00:35:43] Maria: Be willing to let unideal partners go. 

[00:35:47] Juliana: Yeah, because you know what's going to happen? They're going to start thinking that they can tell you how to do your job. And now that's not a collaboration, that's not, there's no allyship there.

[00:35:56] Juliana: Now, you have like the puppet master, who, by the [00:36:00] way, when they leave at the end of the day, they put their head down on their pillow and they go to bed, and they don't have to deal with the repercussions of what they've just tried to force, right?

[00:36:14] Maria: Oh, it's the worst when people like try to make you like create a new program or you know, oh I give you 20 000. So now you have to rename this 40 year old conference after me and i'm like what are you talking about? Like you're supporting this like you're not anyways, but yeah, it's preaching to the choir.

[00:36:39] Juliana: Well and I do believe that things are Shifting I really do. I really do. And I would love to see the, the Charities of Canada get together and, and say, you know, we, we need to band together on, on this particular topic and, you know, sort of, I hate to say this, but like force the hand of the donor or [00:37:00] specifically those donors that, that are opposed for whatever archaic reason.

[00:37:07] Juliana: If everybody does it and says, this is the, this is how we're doing it, you know, it's like, okay. 

[00:37:14] Maria: Yeah, I like your gasoline example. you're not going to have a completely drastically different experience if you go to a different nonprofit.

[00:37:20] Maria: This is the standard. 

[00:37:21] Juliana: Well, and how about this? If you really are one of these people that can't stand admin for whatever reason, then you must not be surprised when the program is crap. You must not be surprised when it's not going well, because you've now created this. You handcuffed them. That was your choice.

[00:37:44] Juliana: You chose to handcuff them by saying you can't use money on admin. Oh, well, now the program kind of sucks. It's on you. It's not on the charity at that point. 

[00:37:57] Maria: [00:38:00] true.

[00:38:01] Maria: 

[00:38:01] Juliana: you. I went with look man today. 

[00:38:05] Maria: I know you look me in a lot, but usually, yeah, everyone will be like, I'm like, yes, 

[00:38:12] Juliana: Oh God. Yeah. Well, I thought to myself, I better keep it on the up and up, but, if anybody meets with me, you know, in as grantee, funder, they, they won't get look man. So I got so much more, Unkempt version, which is more fun anyway. 

[00:38:34] Maria: Yeah, 

[00:38:34] Juliana: yeah. So, 

[00:38:35] Maria: thank you all for listening to this episode of the Small Nonprofit Podcast.

[00:38:39] Maria: I hope that you got to hear a different perspective today. I was really excited to bring someone who has had a big interest and involvement in philanthropy for so much of her life. So I hope that you take that advice of building it into your contracts, having these conversations. And if you're a funder, being a [00:39:00] little bit more, graceful with your partners, believe them, know that they're doing the best that they can.

[00:39:05] Maria: Thank you again. Bye for now.