Leading Human-First: The Intersection of Work and Well-Being in Nonprofits with Lacey Kempinski

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Are you feeling torn between supporting your team's work-life balance and striving to hit those all-important organizational milestones? For those managing small nonprofits, where every hour and every dollar counts tenfold, balancing personal growth and professional success can be a challenge. 

Today, we dive deep into creating a workforce that thrives on the “leading human-first” approach with Lacey Kempinski, CEO and Founder of Balanced Good. Balanced Good provides parental leave coverage – from the day-to-day hands-on work to big picture transition planning. Balanced Good believes that a supported transition to parenthood will benefit both our sector and the parents working in it. Lacey has a big vision, she wants parental leave to become a celebrated life milestone, not a feared employment gap.

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Key Episode Highlights: 

• Leading Human First: Leading with a human-first approach is a strategic move. Lacey and I explore the long-term benefits,the pressing need for people-centered policies, and how they play a crucial role in employee retention in a sector that's primarily women-led. 

• Beyond Parental Leave: Targeting the nonprofit sector's approach to parental leave, Lacey addresses the broader spectrum of parental support necessary within our organizations. From the nuances of policy creation to fostering an inclusive and equitable workplace, these actionable discussions could very well set your organization on a path to become a pioneer in employee well-being.

• Flexibility as a Retention Tool: We analyze how work culture—especially in the context of compensation and benefits—can be critically assessed and reshaped in innovative ways to prioritize the people behind the mission. By valuing flexibility and understanding, Lacey talks about creating a compelling argument for talent to stay, grow, and contribute meaningfully to the nonprofit world.

• Support at Every Stage: Discussing the ebb and flow of employees' personal lives—like becoming a parent—Lacey reiterates the need for smoother transitions. Learn about the steps for recruitment, hiring, and promotions that take the whole individual into account, ensuring that your nonprofit doesn't just survive these transitions but thrives because of them.
  

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Watch this episode on Youtube: https://youtu.be/P9LqhfPMV6c 

Links and Resources:  

• Connect with Lacey Kempinski on Linkedin: linkedin.com/in/laceykempinski 

• Learn more about Balanced Good: balancedgood.com

• Balanced Good LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/balanced-good/ 

• Mat Leave Workbook: https://icy-base-20781.myflodesk.com/1986644d-75ba-476f-a37f-788cd7e5d48d

• VIP Day Waitlist: https://icy-base-20781.myflodesk.com/vipwaitlist

• Connect with Maria on LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mariario/

• Support the show: https://www.buzzsprout.com/208666/supporters/new

Transcript:

00:00:00 Lacey: It's almost like a very hard shift, like, okay, now you've had your baby and now you're just a parent for 12 to 18 months. And then how do you get back to work? What I find for me is that it was too harsh of a line of like, you go from career-driven to parent and then back to career, but also parent. It's very, it can be very challenging. And there are some people that thrive in those changes, but for me it was really like, how can I hold on to a little bit more of my work while I'm adjusting to this role as parent? And then when I come back to work, how can I embrace the new person that I am as a parent and apply some of those skills to my job?

00:00:48 Maria: Hi friends. Ever wondered how you could turn your big ideas into results? I'm Maria Rio, your go-to guide for helping small nonprofits have real world impacts. Together, let's reimagine a better sector, tackle systemic issues, and yes, raise some serious cash. Welcome back to The Small Nonprofit, the podcast where your passion meets action.

00:01:20 Maria: Hi friends, welcome back to another episode of The Small Nonprofit Podcast. Today I'm with an amazing guest, Lacey, who is here to talk to us about all things parental leave in the nonprofit sector. So Lacey is an expert in this, and I'm really excited to share her insights with you today. Hi, Lacey.

00:01:41 Lacey: Hi Maria, thanks so much for having me. And I really appreciate you calling me an expert because I'm still kind of embracing that term, right? So I really appreciate that.

00:01:51 Maria: I know. You've had these conversations, I'm sure, with a bunch of other business owners where it's like, you gotta embrace the terms that are true, like CEO and founder and how we tend to shy away from those kinds of terms as women. So you're an expert in this, and I'm really excited for you to share your expertise with our audience today. But Lacey, can you please just quickly introduce yourself and what you do to our audience?

00:02:17 Lacey: Yeah, of course. So thanks again, Maria, for having me. I am the founder and CEO of Balanced Good, which is a niche consulting agency within the nonprofit sector, specifically serving working parents and covering parental leave. So we actually go in and we have a team, an incredible, amazing team at Balanced Good. And we go in and we cover the leave. So we do the work, we also bring our expertise and strategy to it.

00:02:47 Lacey: But really we're trying to make sure that the work of the parent going on leave is fully supported but also that the employer can kind of breathe that sigh of relief that like, okay, we've got this covered, things can continue on. So Balanced Good has been, it's been five years now, it's been quite the journey. It started when I, after I had my second son. I realized I couldn't, I didn't want to go back to the nonprofit sector in this traditional work. I wanted more autonomy over my schedule and I just, I didn't see how I could be the fundraiser I wanted to be and the mom I wanted to be like aligning.

00:03:22 Lacey: So what started as kind of, if I can help some women and leaders get some work off their plate so they can have more intentional time with their families and life beyond work, then maybe I can do the same. And then that really niched into, wow, I see that there's a lot of struggle around this parental leave piece. And I think I have a solution. And so far we've been able to work with some incredible organizations to cover leaves, some incredible parents to cover leaves, and it's really growing. It's an exciting place to be at right now.

00:03:55 Maria: That is fantastic. And you're right, that is super, super niche. I think you're the only person that I know that's specifically focused on parental leaves. And I love that it's tied to your personal story as well. That's really sweet. When it comes to the leaves that you cover or your company covers, Balanced Good, is it mostly senior leadership roles? Is it executive directors? What does that look like?

00:04:24 Lacey: We really try to approach it from as holistic as we can based on the expertise we have on our team and with the partners we work with. So we often, you can find us partnering with other consultants just to make sure we have all the skill sets we need to cover the role. I would say we cover from junior roles, so like a coordinator position, all the way up to senior leadership and CEO roles. It really has been a wide variety. We've found quite a few organizations reaching out to us for that director of development role, which is kind of like, as you know, it's a large role. There's often a lot of turnover in those roles too.

00:05:04 Lacey: So we have covered a few of those as well, but we really wanted it to be accessible for all types of roles because recognizing that even in entry-level roles, when somebody's just starting their career and then they're also expanding their family, it doesn't mean that they want to put a pause on their career or not continue it once they're back from parental leave. So we really want to take a, what are your career goals for the next year and how can we drive them forward in the organization while we're covering your role?

00:05:31 Maria: And what makes your value proposition so different? Why would an organization go to Balanced Good instead of an interim ED company during a parental leave?

00:05:44 Lacey: Oh, I love this question. Because I love organizations that support interim work. And oftentimes, like we are bidding against them. And I'm fully, for the abundance mindset. And I think that there's a lot of, same with Fractional Fundraising, like there's a lot of people that could do the work that we're doing. And in some cases, they might be a better fit. And we're the first ones to say, actually, we think this is a better fit. But when it comes to parental leave, we really take, like, a very specific onboarding and offboarding approach.

00:06:13 Lacey: So really getting to know the organization, their goals for that role that we would be covering in the 12 to 18 months. But then also looking at how we can fully support the employee. So what are their goals for those 12 to 18 months? What are projects that they're passionate about? Where do they see their career going once they come back from parental leave? And then beyond that, when they come back, we really hold their hands and make it as possible. Because I've come back from parental leaves and it can be a bumpy road.

00:06:45 Lacey: So I want to make sure that the experience is smooth so that the employer can retain that employee and keep them engaged and show them they're supportive. The other big value add that we have that's special to Balanced Good is we provide, like a wrap-up report at the end of the role saying here's the things you can do based on this role that make this more supportive for a working parent. And these recommendations can really be applied to a variety of roles in the organization.

00:07:16 Lacey: But then there are some ones that are very specific to the role we covered saying, like, here's how we can streamline some things. Here's the best return on investment when it comes to these fundraising activities. Here are all the things that can help you keep this employee, keep them happy and keep your organization growing.

00:07:32 Maria: Oh, I love that. It's like a retention angle, because that's so important. I feel like someone who's been part of senior leadership myself, that many times it's like, are they actually going to come back after, you know, maternity leave, paternity leave? Are they going to feel like they want to come back? Maybe they go to a different role or something like that. So having that specific support and that like a wrap up report, I think would be really helpful if I was in that situation. So that's really awesome.

00:08:03 Maria: For, so I'm not a parent, I'm a, furmom, I guess. But for parents in the sector, they might be more familiar with the issue. Right. So I'd love, if you could talk to us about why this is an issue in the first place in our sector. Or maybe if you want to talk about broader parental leave issues, that'd be great.

00:08:25 Lacey: For sure. I think there's so much to unpack with that question and comment because I think the first thing I want to touch on is, like you said, Maria, you're not a parent. And I think sometimes people associate Balanced Good and my passion for parental leaves and working parents as this, like I'm fully, like I really want, like exceptions for working parents and stuff. And that's not the case. What I want is for employers to really understand, like a holistic approach of supporting employees, whether they're working parents or not. Whether it's your child that you need to leave early for because they have a doctor's appointment or your cat because they have a vet appointment.

00:09:05 Lacey: There's so many, there's my dog making an appearance too. There's so many important things beyond life. And when we're in a sector that has so much emotion, so much empathy, so much compassion and fatigue, we need to look at our employees holistically. So that's the one piece I like to cover. But when we talk about, like parental leave in the nonprofit sector, why does this matter so much? For me, it really comes down to the fact that our sector is dominated by women, right? We know that, that's a fact. So it's really important.

00:09:42 Lacey: And when we look at the numbers, we actually have about one and a half million women in the nonprofit sector who are working moms. So that's really significant. That's a big portion of our sector. So. And that doesn't include fathers, right? And working fathers have similar responsibilities and pieces. So making sure that we're creating environments where employees can thrive, again, whether they're parents or not is extremely important. So I think, like that's where the context comes of why I'm doing this work.

00:10:15 Maria: And for the stat that you just listed, the one and a half million women, is that in Canada? And how does that compare to the size of the sector?

00:10:24 Lacey: Yeah, so that is in Canada. So one and a half million in Canada. In Canada, the sector itself employs two and a half million people, roughly. And 77% are women. And then we also know that there's these persistent racial and gender equity gaps, right? So I think it's important when we have 77% women, and then if you layer on that women that are racialized, then their experiences as well. When we can provide a supported parental leave, I think we can equal the playing field when it comes to motherhood and parenting. So I think it's kind of that first step.

00:11:07 Lacey: And then when we look at like, even in the United States, like the numbers are vastly different, but it's 9.2 million working women in the sector, right? So, or working mothers in the sector. So, I think that there's just like, this is a big group that we haven't really looked at in terms of what do these women and parents need to really succeed in their role to continue to strengthen our sector.

00:11:32 Maria: And what is it that you feel that they need?

00:11:37 Lacey: I think the main thing is just understanding that people are whole humans, that they are not just employees of an organization. They’re not martyrs of your charitable cause. They're not only parents, they're all of these things. I am a parent of three incredible children, but I am also extremely passionate about our sector. I'm extremely passionate about working parents and parental leave rights. So all of these things make up who I am, and that's what I bring to the field. And that's no different than anyone else. So I think it really is just making sure that we're looking at people holistically and creating work plans that can actually work for them.

00:12:20 Maria: And do you find that there are currently many nonprofits that do that when it comes to looking at people holistically or parently or any of this, how are you doing outside of work vibes? Do you find that nonprofits are currently doing that well or not so well? Or are there examples of really good, really bad that you can touch upon?

00:12:43 Lacey: Yeah, I mean, I think like any field and sector, there are examples of great organizations out there that are really compassionate, really like leading, human first, really trying to understand what it is the employee needs. And like I've listened to some incredible podcasts, yours and others that highlight some of these leaders, right, that really understand, okay, not just that living wage is essential, but paid sick days is essential, having autonomy in your schedule is essential. All of these things set you up. So we've been able to work with a lot of organizations that really have this approach.

00:13:21 Lacey: I think because our program and this parental leave coverage is so niche and unique, it attracts people who are like-minded to us, right? So they want to do what's best for their employee. They want to have employee retention. They understand the value of investing in their team and their employees. So those organizations that reach out to us, when they initially hear that one of their team members is expecting and they really want to do right for that person, those organizations are the ones that, like, shine in my mind. Because they really wanna create a plan from the get-go and make sure that this person, whether it's mother, father, can really thrive throughout their transition to parental leave and then when they come back and their transition to a working parent.

00:14:06 Maria: And do you see when you provide your wrap up report bigger changes happen across the organization? So for example, this person needs an hour off every Friday to pick up their kid from school. Do you see that applied more broadly where anyone at the organization can use an hour anytime of that week to do, like a task outside of work? Or how does that get implemented?

00:14:33 Lacey: I think so. In theory, again, because our program is so new, I think there's work to be done in terms of following up with the organizations we've worked with to really understand the long-term impact of our program. So I really like that question. And I'm like taking mental notes here like this is something we need to do because, but typically what we do is yes, we make recommendations that are specific to the role, but also specific to the organization, right? So just like some tangible things that the organization can do to approve autonomy across all employees.

00:15:05 Lacey: So something just as simple as, like transparent calendar sharing across your organization. So you can see what people have on the go, where they're at and make it and lead by example that I'm putting in an hour long afternoon walk because I need to clear my head, I need to get that exercise, or I have a hard stop at three because I have to pick up my kids, or because I have to, I have a volunteer board of directors meeting, like all of these things, and make it okay to put those things in there.

00:15:35 Lacey: Because on the flip side, sometimes because people are leaving at three or whatever, they're editing or copy writing or doing something in the evening when they have the capacity because not everybody works in this nine to five confines and some people do. Some people thrive in nine to five and that's also okay. So understanding and allowing for autonomy and kind of creating that transparent organization to allow for that is really beneficial for all members and all people in the sector, not just working parents.

00:16:09 Maria: Finally, this kind of touches into the future of work conversation which, you know, in the nonprofit sector, we keep saying the future of work even though it’s now, it’s happening. People are offering flexible work arrangements. People are telling their staff, like hey, I don’t care what time you’re doing this task, as long as he gets it done. So if you need to go to the dentist during the day, you don't need to ask me for permission.

00:16:32 Maria: You know, if you need to pick up your kid early because they’re sick, you don’t need to ask me for permission. Just make sure the tasks are done. So I think that that's really, really good to be able to look at people more holistically, or as you said, leading human first, which I loved and immediately wrote down, and really put people at the center of what we do as a sector.

00:16:55 Lacey: Yeah, and I think, like there's organizations a lot that are hesitant, right? And I understand for a couple of reasons. One, like the work we're doing and like, I don't say this lightly, but the work that we're doing in our sector is changing the world, right? We're tackling some of the biggest problems in the world. And so a lot of people have a lot of passion when it comes to this work and want to put everything into it, but we can't expect that of everyone. And we shouldn't, and we shouldn't even expect that of ourselves, right?

00:17:25 Lacey: So I think just having, like clear discussions around what your goals are for the role and understanding that yes, we're doing incredibly important work and we could spend 24 hours a day doing this work, but what are the goals? What are the needs to do versus the nice to do? And I think sometimes as organizations, we don't do that. And for me, I'm super passionate about, which this sounds strange, but I'm super passionate about position descriptions, performance descriptions and like performance metrics.

00:18:01 Lacey: Because these are the tools that are going to allow your organization to meet the important milestones and mission work that you're doing while also providing autonomy. You can't just provide blanket autonomy. You have to understand that like you said, getting the work done, so you have to understand weighing that autonomy against performance metrics, performance job descriptions and all of these pieces. And for some organizations, they just don't have that structure in place yet.

00:18:30 Lacey: So then it's really hard for full autonomy to thrive, right? So having position descriptions that clearly outline what needs to happen, how it needs to happen, and not having that like other duties as assigned in the position description is so key for creating autonomous workplaces.

00:18:51 Maria: Other duties as assigned. Yeah, that's a classic. That's a classic, other duties as assigned. You may also now be the HR representative and also be working on finance and also. Ah, I want to jump back a little bit and talk a little bit more about, specifically expecting parents because they are facing different issues in, working parents do. So maybe you could talk about some of the issues that expecting parents are facing when it comes to promotions or hiring or just like work life balance in general.

00:19:25 Lacey: Yeah, I think that time and like it, just you saying that takes me back to this time when I was expecting my first son. Like, there's so much you don't know as an expectant parent, right? Like, you can only imagine what your world is going to look like. And for me, and like a lot of other women and parents, like my career was kind of like my first baby, it was something I put so much energy and effort in, it was something I was so incredibly proud of. And then, so shifting from fully career focus to now, it's almost like a very hard shift, like okay, now you've had your baby and now you're just a parent for 12 to 18 months.

00:20:09 Lacey: And then how do you get back to work? What I find it for me is that it was too harsh of a line of like, you go from career driven to parent and then back to career, but also parent. It's very, it can be very challenging. And there are some people that thrive in those changes. But for me, it was really like, how can I hold onto a little bit more of my work while I'm adjusting to this role as parent? And then when I come back to work, how can I embrace the new person that I am as a parent and apply some of those skills to my job?

00:20:47 Lacey: So like I came back as a much more confident person because I found this whole other side of me through motherhood. And so for a lot of expectant parents, that is a journey that you go on. And I think also there's just this worry, like what's going to happen to my role, my career? How is it going to go on for a year without me? And so these are all of the things that, like, we work to address when we take on a leave. We really want people to feel confident that we've got their role.

00:21:17 Lacey: And if you want some updates throughout it, we'd love to give you them because we want you to still feel connected to your role. If you don't want updates, we're also okay with that too. So it's, I think that answers your question. It's a really challenging time.

00:21:32 Maria: Yeah, I feel like that would also, like, reduce anxiety for the employee, like just what's going on, things are still going well, because as you were saying, like so much of our identities are tied to our role. Right? Like we come into this work through our values and our passion for making a difference. So to go from your identity being like, so, you know, I'm an advocate, I'm a person who does X to your identity is now like, I'm a mom. And like, if there's like a conflict between that, it would be really hard to reconcile. So just making an easier transition for parents as they're expecting sounds like you'd be so hopeful.

00:22:13 Lacey: And I think also like, and maybe this is my, like very optimistic thought, but as parents, we're also raising this next generation of advocates and change makers. And so being able to, especially in this field, to integrate our personal lives with our professional lives is like, critical. Like I love when my kids start talking about charities and the sector, they, I mean, they listen to your podcasts when we're driving, right? I love that they are exposed to this because I hope it's instilling a little bit of excitement around the fact that we can change the world. And I know that that sounds very optimistic, but it's true because that's the work that we're doing. So I think it's really important to have this open policy where we can expose children in the next generation to our sector.

00:23:04 Maria: I think, like one of the issues that we always talk about in our sector is also staff retention and recruiting and all those things. So I imagine that leading human first, as you were saying, would have such a big impact on that. Because I just remember conversations that I've had with EDs over the years where they're like, I don't see my kids. My partner is always taking care of the kids because I'm the ED and I have to be here all the time and I'm literally dying, but I'm indispensable to the organization. So it comes at a cost to not lead, human first, whether that's personal or professional when it comes to employee retention. So I like everything that you're saying about treating people holistically and really trying to support them as people outside of your workplace.

00:24:00 Lacey: Yeah, and I do think that there's some hesitation with this because I think there's organizations that, and I've already kind of hit on this, but I just want to really highlight this is leading human first and understanding what your employees need to thrive works if you have structure in place, right? If you still really clearly understand what their role expectations are and that they're achieving them, and that you've set them up in a way that they can achieve them too.

00:24:31 Lacey: I see so many organizations, maybe I'm going down a path I shouldn't, but I see so many organizations doing all of the things for fundraising, because that's what they've always done. Like we talk about this all the time in our sector, right? Like, oh, well, we have to do these four events because, you know, so and so on our board likes this one. And, you know, this one is we've been doing it for 50 years, we can't stop.

00:24:54 Lacey: But if we actually looked at what is bringing on that return and investment, what is getting you closer to your mission work and streamlining, it's, it will impact everyone across the organization in a positive way and allow you to have more space to lead in this human first way. So I don't say it lightly that we just need to treat people as whole humans. It's, let's look at the systems and the structures we have in place, the programs we have in place, and really take a hard look at what's holding us back from being, like allowing us to treat people the way that they should and need to be treated.

00:25:30 Maria: I'd love, if you could take us through some actionable steps. So whether it comes to expecting parents or working parents during, you know, the whole cycle of being an employee. So whether that's recruitment or working, hiring, promotions, any of that, are there actionable steps that organizations can take or implement to better support people as humans?

00:25:56 Lacey: Yes, I love this question. And there's a lot, right? Like, from something as simple as calendar sharing to something as more detailed as making sure that you actually have policies and plans in place for your organization to do this. So does your organization have a parental leave policy? Have you looked at it in the last five years or is it just collecting dust? Do you have a flexible work policy? Same thing. Looking at all these policies and making sure that they're actually serving the organization that you are.

00:26:27 Lacey: Understanding the positions that are in the role and ensuring you have those metrics in place and monitoring those metrics and making sure that you have time to monitor those metrics and understanding also what work requirements for your organization are a must. So if you are client facing and clients come Tuesdays from nine to five, well, then likely, like you have to have staff there. So yes, flexibility is important, but that has to be against the fact that you have a mission, you have clients to serve, you have work to do.

00:26:57 Lacey: So looking at what are those non-negotiables, and then what are the things you can negotiate. And then some of the smaller things, like I said, calendar sharing, but also asking team members what type of flexibility they need, like just lead with transparent conversation. Like, if you could have dream hours, what would they be? What does that look like? How can you do your role in that time? Like I said, some people thrive in that nine to five, and that's what they want because they know they can turn it on at nine and turn it off at five. But others don't quite work like that.

00:27:27 Lacey: And then a big one is access to paid sick days. When we have access to paid sick days, we can really, really change how we retain and support our team, right? So I think those are some of the actionable steps. And I could go on, but I think that's like a good bite size amount.

00:27:45 Maria: Nice. Yeah, I think that would be super helpful for people to start thinking about and revisiting because yeah, how often do you revisit your policies, right? They're just collecting dust. And if you're not keeping up with them, and with the changes happening so quickly with the future of work, then you're falling behind. And your staff are usually the people who suffer most when an organization starts falling behind and things like this. So I love everything that you're saying.

00:28:13 Lacey: Thanks, Maria. I think, like when we look at our sector, like notoriously, we don't have the highest pay scales and we're working towards changing that, but there's these other things that we can do to make this sector have higher retention rates. And that's all of these flexibility pieces and benefits outside of, salary scale. I still think people should be paid fairly and adequately for the work that they're doing and like, be paid a living wage and beyond. But you know, when our salaries don't compare to the for-profit sector, here are some other things, like we can make things really flexible. We can have other opportunities to allow people to really still thrive in the nonprofit sector.

00:29:01 Maria: Instead of feeling like you have to be a martyr and give everything up outside of work. Super annoying. It's funny because we do it to ourselves so many times, right? Like in the example of the ED, it's like, you're the ED, you can change this. But there's so much pressure on people to kind of keep things going as they were or keep exceeding expectations or just do as much as possible because you're passionate about the cause.

00:29:29 Maria: So to kind of think of putting yourself first and how that has a long term impact on the success of an organization or the work-life balance that you show at your organization sounds really healthy. And I just hope that people who are listening, who want to implement some of those things at their organization, take some of your feedback and apply it.

00:29:55 Lacey: Thanks, Maria. I think you can tell I'm super passionate about this and I'm also willing and open to having discussions with other people about this and how we do this at Balanced Good, like we really do live the values I talk about, right? So we do have flexible work. Like we've made all of this happen. And so, and it's as a startup, I'm navigating things, right? Like I don't, I'm not an HR expert, but I know that there's things that employees need to thrive and I'm making sure that I have those things for my team. And so I'm happy to talk about that process and share that information with leaders who are navigating that.

00:30:34 Maria: That's so exciting. Thank you so much for being so generous with your insight and your advice. If people want to continue the conversation with you and learn more about what you're doing and how you're doing it, where can they get in touch with you?

00:30:48 Lacey: Yeah, of course. So I'm on LinkedIn, I love LinkedIn. So at Lacey Kempinski on LinkedIn, and also Balanced Good is on LinkedIn. I'm on Instagram at Balanced Good, our website, balancedgood.com. And we also have, we're launching a VIP, parental leave planning in a day program. So you can go to balancedgood.com and find some more information out there and join the waitlist. So lots of ways to be in touch. And like I said, I'm really open to ongoing conversations and love connecting with other people in the sector.

00:31:21 Maria: We’ll link all of those links in the show notes below so you can get in touch with Lacey. Thank you again, Lacey, for joining us for today's episode of The Small Nonprofit Podcast. And thank you everyone for tuning in. I hope that you take this advice because we really need to be leading, human first, I think. And we really need to be making sure that people's lives outside of work are respected and valued. So thank you again, Lacey. And thank you everyone for tuning in to today's episode. Bye for now.

00:31:54 Maria: Hi friends. Ever wondered how you could turn your big ideas into results? I'm Maria Rio, your go-to guide for helping small nonprofits have real world impacts. Together, let's reimagine a better sector, tackle systemic issues, and yes, raise some serious cash. Welcome back to The Small Nonprofit, the podcast where your passion meets action.