New Beginnings for The Small Nonprofit Podcast…
In this brand new episode of 'The Small Nonprofit'—we have some exciting news! Our beloved host Cindy is handing over the microphone to Maria Rio, another leader in the non-profit world.
A dynamic and passionate personality, Maria started her career as a face-to-face fundraiser, climbed the nonprofit ladder with dedication and hard work, and eventually found her niche in community-centric fundraising. She's worked with many small nonprofits, and knows the struggles that come with low capacity and limited funds. She is the proud founder of Further Together, a fundraising consultancy dedicated to supporting organizations implement community-centric fundraising values.
So, gear up, get comfortable and join us as we embark on this new season with our new host!
Don’t forget to become a supporter of our show!
Key Episode Highlights:
Cindy and Maria talk about their respective journeys in fundraising; from how they became fundraisers to owning their own businesses
Maria's Transition to Community-Centric Fundraising: Maria shares her journey of moving away from harmful practices to a more personal, inclusive fundraising model. This approach gave her a sense of belonging and proved to be a successful strategy.
Fractional Fundraising: We explore the concept of fractional executives, which offer stability and transformative support for organizations. This stress-free consulting approach allows work to be done without the need for managing or administrative tasks.
Cindy's Role Beyond Hosting: Apart from hosting the show, Cindy has made significant contributions as a consultant for nonprofits, championing fractional fundraising and innovation. She extends her expertise in the sector to her new podcast centred on supporting nonprofit consultants.
The Future of The Small Nonprofit Podcast: As Maria takes the baton, listeners can anticipate exciting conversations around fundraising and the unique opportunities and challenges facing small nonprofits.
Don’t forget to become a supporter of our show!
Watch this episode on Youtube: https://youtu.be/CmCHHsmOs2s?si=ge9FjSktpxqpbIt9
Links and Resources:
Connect with Maria: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mariario/
Connect with Cindy: https://cindywagman.com/
Confessions Podcast: confessionswithjessandcindy.com
Support the show: https://www.buzzsprout.com/208666/supporters/new
Transcript:
00:00:00 Cindy: Welcome back to the Small Nonprofit Podcast. If you are a loyal listener, you know that we've been on a break in publishing new episodes, partly because we've been moving towards a new host for the show. I'm so excited for today's episode because this is our transition.
00:00:21 M: Hi, friends. Ever wondered how you could turn your big ideas into results? I'm Maria Rio, your go-to guide for helping small nonprofits have real world impacts. Together, let's reimagine a better sector, tackle systemic issues, and yes, raise some serious cash. Welcome back to The Small Nonprofit, the podcast where your passion meets action.
00:00:48 Cindy: I'm Cindy Wagman and I am the outgoing host of the Small Nonprofit Podcast and it is my absolute pleasure to introduce you to the new host, Maria Rio. Maria, welcome.
00:01:04 Maria: Oh, it's so bittersweet to be here. Oh, it's so sad that you're leaving. I'm sure all your listeners are definitely going to miss you so, so much. Oh.
00:01:13 Cindy: Well, you're familiar to some of them because you've been on the podcast before. And it's been such a journey. I've loved hosting this podcast, but my journey has shifted directions. And so I had a choice. I was like, "Should I just end the podcast or what would a future look like for it?" And I got feedback from people that they love the podcast and it's so valuable to them. And when I thought about, "Hmm... who do I know who would do this podcast justice?" You were my number one pick. So I'm so, so glad you agreed to take this over.
00:01:58 Maria: Yay! That's so good. I was so flattered when you brought this up and I just can't wait to do you proud, really.
00:02:08 Cindy: Oh, I love it. For people who don't know you yet, like I said, I know, actually a few people guessed when they guessed, right, that you were taking it over because you are in... we are in the same network. We work together on different things and it really did feel like a natural... you felt like a natural successor. But for those people who don't know you yet, tell us a little bit about yourself.
00:02:32 Maria: Great. So I'm Maria, my pronouns are she and her. Like Cindy, I live in Toronto and I've been fundraising for over 10 years, which is a little bit wild to think about. So I started as one of those face-to-face fundraisers with the vests on the street saying like, "Hey, can I have a minute?" And I did that for four and a half years running campaigns for 11 different clients, anywhere from SickKids Hospital, which is one of the biggest hospitals in the world for pediatric health, to Amnesty International, to UNHCR. Public Outreach was running campaigns around all these clients. So I got a really interesting opportunity to actually see how people tell their stories, how different brands engage with their donors, different kinds of fundraising tactics that they each had. And then after working at Public Outreach for four and a half years, I hung up my vest and I started working.
00:03:27 Cindy: I love those vests.
00:03:28 Maria: Right? I know the vests are iconic. Like, you know exactly what I'm talking about.
00:03:33 Cindy: Oh, yeah.
00:03:34 Maria: That was your job. It's like, “Yes, I was actually really excited to do it, too.”
00:03:37 Cindy: Can I say, like anyone I've ever met who's done that face to face fundraising are exceptional fundraisers.
00:03:45 Maria: I definitely agree with you. When I moved into nonprofit, I'm like, "Oh, all these fundraisers had to learn how to fundraise by themselves." Like there's no one to teach you kind of. You always have to learn things on the job because, you know, your ED might not know how to fundraise. Your board definitely doesn't know how to fundraise. So where does that leave you? But at companies that do face to face outreach, it's wild how much training they put into you every single day. Like you'll be practicing pitches every single day and like learning psychology and learning different ways to engage with different kinds of people.
00:04:18 Maria: Cause obviously not everyone your stop wants to talk to you or, or cares about the organization you're fundraising for, right? So how do you deal with, you know, making a five minute friend and any concerns the person might have. Oh my God, you know what was the funniest part though? So we had to get them signed up on the spot, right? So you need to have a credit card on you so I can sign you up for a monthly gift. But if they didn't, they could also do it through their bank, but you need your transit institution and account number.
00:04:46 Cindy: Which one? Who has that? No one.
00:04:48 Maria: Who has that? So we would like to call the bank with them. Yes.
00:04:53 Cindy: Oh my God, that's awkward.
00:04:56 Maria: Get their transit and account number on the street and sign them up, which was... There's so many stories and I'm sure I'll tell a lot as we go through this. But yeah, there's just, it was a really interesting job and I definitely learned a lot. But then, yeah, after that, I moved into nonprofit proper. I worked for the United Church of Canada Foundation, Israel Cancer Research Fund, the Canadian Civil Liberties Association, which is where we met.
00:05:21 Cindy: We first met, yeah.
00:05:22 Maria: Yeah, that was, oh my God, it feels like so long ago already. And then most recently, I was the Director of Development and Communications at a small, smallish, medium sized–
00:05:32 Cindy: Not so small. Yeah.
00:05:33 Maria: Like $5 million organization.
00:05:35 Cindy: But like, small, but very mighty. Like, I'd say they're really well known in Toronto.
00:05:42 Maria: Well, they had me there. Yeah, really well known organization, which was awesome to work with them. And now I have been in consulting. So something that I was like begging Cindy last year, I need an opportunity. I'm looking for something new. What do you know of? And she's been telling me for a while to get into consulting. So I finally bit the bullet and have been doing that for the past 10 months.
00:06:09 Cindy: Which is crazy because it feels like so much longer, but it's... so I'm going to tell people the story of how we met because this was at a time when I was doing just like fundraising as a consultant doing fundraising plans and helping organizations hire help. And so I got hired by the Canadian Civil Liberties Association to do a fundraising plan and help them hire. And I met Maria because she applied for the job there. And I was like, "If you don't take this job, we're gonna find a way to work together." I was like, "This is like our paths will continue to cross in many ways. I know one day we will work together."
00:06:50 Cindy: So she did take that job, which is great. But then I think moved on to even more exciting opportunities. And so, yeah, literally from the moment we sat down together in that coffee shop at the Toronto Reference Library, I was like, "I know that Maria is someone who I want in my universe." But I also want you to share a little bit about because I know we don't like this term, but it's true. You are a thought leader specifically. You're doing a lot of work around community centric fundraising, which I am so excited about. And I love watching you in this space. So can you tell us a little bit more about that work?
00:07:30 Maria: Yeah, absolutely. So community centric fundraising is something that I became deeply attached to when I was kind of exploring my space in our sector, in our city, because there's so many multicultural people, multicultural fundraisers, but there's still a lot of white systems in place. So what does that look like for someone who, like me, is racialized, came to Canada as a refugee, have access to charitable services, and where do I fit in our sector as a fundraiser. So it's something that I always felt a little bit of a lack of belonging when going to things like AFP and hearing white women say like, "Well, what if the donor had a bad day?" I don't want to confront them on their racism, like blatant racism. And me and the other racialized person, like we both have our cameras off, probably both rolling our eyes. Definitely I was.
00:08:26 Maria: So just trying to find your space was really important to me. And I think Community-Centric Fundraising give me words to kind of put my thoughts together about what I was feeling in the sector and what many other racialized people or people who are seen as other or marginalized feel in the sector. So ever since learning those terms, I've been able to actually apply Community-Centric Fundraising in practice. So moving the strategy of that organization from really elitist galas to something that was more accessible to our entire community and not othering of the people we're trying to serve. So that is very, very important to me.
00:09:04 Maria: And then since moving from that organization, I've been able to do a lot of speaking engagements, trainings, webinars, resource development, but what does this look like in practice? Because that's the other thing, right? We've all grown up with best practices looking X, Y, and Z way. So now what does X practices of Community-Centric Fundraising look like? We don't really know.
00:09:29 Cindy: But that's so exciting. And one of the hesitations I hear from people who dig their heels in the old way of doing things is this play on research, right? Like, oh my goodness, these are well-researched, historical things. And what I love about what you're saying is something's new, it doesn't have research, but it doesn't mean it doesn't work. It just means we just don't have as much research around it working. And so I love that you are playing in that space of practitioner and you have the results. We're figuring out what works and it does still work to raise more money.
00:10:11 Maria: Huge results. And that's something that I like to share with, you know, the naysayers of like, we have research, which, first of all, our modern concept of nonprofit is not that old. So the research that you have is not like hundreds of centuries in X, Y, and Z. There's so much support for mutual aid and community building, community support. That's another thing to consider. I think what a lot of the naysayers around Community-Centric Fundraising often miss is that there's so much research on mutual aid support and community building and all those things that also work to improve a community.
00:10:51 Maria: But just in case you're stuck on the numbers and the return on investment, I've actually myself have piloted some of that already for you. So you can see that it does work. So for the past organization where I did it for two years, we were able to see a 55% increase in dollars donated during Q4 in a year over year comparison. And that's without events. That's without the galas. That's without sending flowers to your major donors. It's about building true partnerships with them and letting them understand the issues that your organization is trying to fix.
00:11:28 Cindy: Yeah, no, it's for those of you who haven't listened to the podcast episode that Maria has been on before, definitely listen to that. We can include it in the show notes, but I've been learning a lot more about what Maria has been doing and has done and like not just dropping the events, but actually having hard conversations with donors. Like my favorite thing is that you got two donors to drop or close their donor advised funds. Like so often we don't see the power that we have in these relationships because we've been trained for so long that we are asking and that feels like begging, which is not how it should feel. And it puts us in this position where we feel so powerless, but in fact, we do have a lot of power. And I love what you've done because you have used that to change real situations and people and people's minds and how they look at social change. I love it.
00:12:32 Maria: Yeah, it has been a really, really interesting and like fulfilling journey for me to see how thoughtful donors actually are with their gifts and their intentions and how they... when getting the same opportunity to explore the concept of Community-Centric Fundraising and have those words, they in turn realize like, "Oh, that's why I felt weird at that tour." Cause I'm looking at these women who are living in a shelter, but they want my name on a plaque, like looking down at them. So it gives them the verbiage to kind of explore what made them uncomfortable about how nonprofits carry themselves and their own relationship with their wealth. Yeah, it's been really, really, really interesting.
00:13:15 Cindy: I love that. And that's definitely one of the reasons why I knew you'd be such a good host for this podcast, because we've always tried to prioritize social justice, really looking at challenging the sector in ways that it needs to be challenged. And you are fearless in that. And I just think that's such a gift to our audience to be able to continue to explore some of the topics that have... I don't want to say have been harder, but that might be newer for people. And they don't have as much experience with this. And that doesn't mean that other stuff that's like, quote unquote, "tried and true," goes in the trash. Like you're also an incredible major gift fundraiser, and appeal writer and all these things.
00:14:03 Cindy: It's not that it's like all of one and none of the other, right? It's evaluating our tactics based on our values and mission and applying that accordingly. So having these tough conversations, not tough, but necessary conversations is, like I said, that to me is one of the most important legacies of the podcast, which is why I think you are so well positioned to take over. So I'm excited.
00:14:28 Maria: Yay! I actually have like seven questions for you about the podcast because I actually--
00:14:31 Cindy: Perfect.
00:14:32 Maria: You don't know, you know, like why did you start the podcast?
00:14:36 Cindy: Yeah. Okay. Why did I start the podcast? So I was early in my consulting days, I think it was just over five years ago, when I started the podcast. So I and I started my company about eight years ago. Yeah, that sounds right. So I was consulting and my one sort of key touchstone in my business was that I wanted to serve small nonprofits. And I felt like all of the fundraising tricks because I'm a fundraiser, all the training and conversations out there are what I call large size fits all. So we take what the big organizations are doing and we try and shove it down the small organizations' mouths, so to speak. We're just like, this is how things are done. Just adopt it to your like no resources.
00:15:28 Cindy: And that just didn't sit well with me. And I wanted a space to have these conversations to talk about what makes small organizations unique and powerful and where the opportunities are. And so we've talked to practitioners and experts and a whole range of hosts. So one, it was just like create conversation around small organizations. And the other sort of guiding point for me has always been to align the conversations with my values, I guess, and my business's values, which are of social justice and decolonization and anti-racism.
00:16:11 Cindy: And so really looking at creating a safe space for those conversations, I can tell you over the years, one or two people have voiced their disagreement with some of the things that we have talked about. And I mean, I'm pretty transparent, this podcast is not for you if you don't want to have those conversations. This to me is part of our service to the sector and what we need to do for our communities. And if you don't like it, that's okay. But most of you are sticking around, which means I think you're here for those conversations.
00:16:54 Maria: Oh, that's so awesome to hear. Yeah, that's also very aligned with my values, which I definitely see the fit here. So do you have a favorite episode or a favorite guest from all the ones that you've done? Do any of them stick out as something that was very insightful or memorable to you?
00:17:12 Cindy: Oh my goodness. Okay, I don't have favorites. But I can tell you episodes that I share a lot because they've been really good resources for people. So actually, some of the very earliest episodes because I was like, "What's my dream list of people I want on the podcast?" And so Paul Nazareth, who is just like the most generous, genuine person I think I've ever met, he has one of the first episodes, I think it's episode number three. We talk about planned giving and it is such a practical episode. Like it is just so specific and easy to follow.
00:17:57 Cindy: Another one I share a lot, I think it's episode number five is with Heather Nelson, because we talk about corporate fundraising and again, it's really step by step. And then there's so, so many more, but I do feel like another one aside from yours, obviously. But another one that's been really powerful conversation is with my friend Rickesh Lakhani, where we talk about having hard conversations with donors. I mean, I adore Rickesh. I think he is so wise. And that was, again, like one of those important conversations that we need to be having in the sector. I'm sure there are so many more. But those are ones that I share a lot.
00:18:44 Maria: Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, of course, all those people are amazing. So that makes total sense. Okay, and one more question, but it's not podcast related.
00:18:51 Cindy: Yeah.
00:18:54 Maria: Because I also didn't know this, but you knew this about me and we've just discussed it. How did you get into nonprofit and fundraising?
00:19:00 Cindy: Okay. So I first got into nonprofit work in high school, where I volunteered at Planned Parenthood Toronto, which is I think what are the things you just learned about me that came up in conversation the other day? So I volunteered for a while there and that kind of introduced me to the world of nonprofits. So that was my first experience with them. And then when I was in university in my undergrad degree, I didn't love school, but I loved getting involved in the extracurriculars and I ran the women's empowerment committee and we did fundraising for local women's shelters.
00:19:44 Maria: So cute! Baby fundraiser.
00:19:48 Cindy: Yeah, little baby me. Yeah, it was really awesome and that was my favorite part of school. That was definitely my favorite part of undergrad but I still didn't know you could be a professional fundraiser. Until I met one summer during university, I met two professional fundraisers. And I was like, "Oh, that's a job. That's cool." Now, this is around the year 2000, maybe 2001, okay. So this is a while ago. And so I was like, "Oh, I can do this. What does it look like?"
00:20:25 Cindy: And so I started paying more attention to fundraising. And in my fourth year of my undergrad, my final year, I actually wrote a thesis on feminist fundraising, which is super nerdy. Super nerdy. And for like, if you really want to nerd out with me, it was based on primary research, like my own research, but also I looked at a lot of the work that Kim Klein had done in writing about grassroots fundraising, which I think was very aligned or a very natural progression to Community-Centric Fundraising. So, yeah, I wrote that thesis and then I got a job at Women's Shelter running their fundraising program and the rest, as I say, is history.
00:21:11 Cindy: I worked my way up the nonprofit ladder and then had the opportunity to consult in 2015 when my two sons were fairly young, the youngest one was about six months old, and I just dove in and it's been great.
00:21:30 Maria: You know many people who have come to fundraising on purpose or they just fall into an accident?
00:21:37 Cindy: Most people fall into it. I'm trying to think. I have had a few conversations with people who intentionally choose it like me, but most people fall into it, like the vast majority.
00:21:49 Maria: I know one other person who chose to become a fundraiser, Esther, you know, Esther Lee, she talked to a career coach and they're like, "You'd actually be really good at fundraising."
00:22:01 Cindy: That's awesome! I love that. I don't even know, it just wasn't a thing when I was looking at professions, but I actually feel very grateful to have been a fundraiser. I love the relationships. I really enjoy working in the nonprofit sector, despite some of the challenges, which there are many. But it's always been a way that I get to live out my values day to day. And so it's been a huge privilege.
00:22:34 Maria: Oh, yeah, that's so lovely. I agree. Like it's such a good way to live out your values. And even though it's really, really difficult because you're fighting internal and external forces to your organization. So necessary and very fulfilling for sure.
00:22:49 Cindy: Yeah, yeah. But for those of you who don't know the full… like what's happening for me next, about a year and a half ago, maybe two years ago, I was looking at my investments that I made as a business owner working in the nonprofit space. And I was like, "All the investments, like all the people who are teaching me how to run a business, none of them know how to run businesses that serve nonprofits." And so I was like, "Well, I have experience doing this. I have my MBA and I was being trained as a certified coach as well at the time." I was like, "Well, I can be that person." So I started coaching other nonprofit consultants on how to build their business. And that's what I'm going to be doing sort of full time now, not any more fundraising.
00:23:39 Cindy: So I do coaching under my personal brand, Cindy Wagman, cindywagman.com. I'm continuing because I've just seen such amazing results from what I now call the fractional fundraising movement, where we've created a network of people who do fractional fundraising for small organizations. And that's just been so rewarding. And I feel like we're at the, just at the beginning of what that's going to look like. So all of that is where I'm focusing my time on going forward.
00:24:12 Maria: Do you foresee the fractional fundraising movement as kind of like taking over what nonprofit currently does when it comes to fundraising?
00:24:20 Cindy: I see it as a really viable choice. So I want people to be able to feel like they have a choice in our sector. I feel like so often we just do the same old, same old, and you've heard me present at a conference on binary decisions, and we always get trapped in thinking, okay, we can do A or B. And that's not actually helpful. So I want fractional fundraising and other fractional executive options to be, to add choices to organizations that are going to help them achieve their goals and maximize their budgets.
00:25:00 Cindy: Now, it's not right for every organization. And some organizations are too big or too far along in their fundraising. I see fractional as really addressing like a bridge to help small organizations build their internal muscles around fundraising so that they can hire someone who doesn't need a lot of supervision. So at like a manager or a director role, unfortunately, so many small organizations can only afford a coordinator and it's the rare person in that role who is actually able to run an in-house program just because they're not as experienced. So I see it as a very viable option for organizations who want to invest in their growth and want to, again, bridge sort of the strategic oversight with the day-to-day implementation. So, yeah, I see big things for it.
00:25:58 Maria: Yeah, I have found like many people have really greatly enjoyed working with only my personal experience as a fractional fundraiser. They see it as a win-win situation. So I'm kind of really interested to see how that takes off.
00:26:13 Cindy: Yeah.
00:26:14 Maria: More than it already has.
00:26:16 Cindy: I mean, it's designed to be a win-win-win, right? So, I mean, I win because this is my business and I want to see it grow. But it's designed really for the organizations to benefit, like to have a really good choice that is better than, again, like the two options that are traditionally on the table. And it's great for fundraisers who wanna be consultants. It's a very stable, less risky way to do consulting. And it's a really transformative way to work with organizations.
00:26:54 Cindy: There are great fundraisers who do projects or not fundraisers, great consultants who do project work and coaching. There's lots of different ways organizations can get support, but some organizations just need the work to get done, right. And that is unique about fractional executives, which is like, you're going to come in and you're going to have this strategy, and you're just going to get the work done. Especially again, that smaller organization that wants to grow but feels overwhelmed by the work involved with it. Fractional is such a gift to be able to get the work done without the stress of managing someone and of doing the work day to day or have like, you know, admin person writing your fundraising appeals. You know, all... you know what I'm talking about.
00:27:46 Maria: Yes, it's rough. It's rough out there.
00:27:49 Cindy: Yeah. So yeah, it's really... I feel like it has a long-term home in the sector.
00:27:55 Maria: Nice, so exciting.
00:27:59 Cindy: Now, before we wrap up, do you wanna give people a little bit of a preview or just your thoughts on like what's coming up in the podcast, conversations you're excited to have, and yeah, what they can expect from you.
00:28:14 Maria: Well, I am super excited to be grabbing the torch from you. I hope to do you proud and I'll be booking people as soon as possible for their interview. So I have some really interesting people already in my pipeline of guests. People have done innovations when it comes to videos or monthly giving plans. And then also I have a person that I worked really closely with on community centric fundraising, major donors, major gifts. So what does that look like from that perspective? But further on it's going to be a lot of really interesting people who are great fundraisers and very values aligned. So if that's for you, keep around.
00:28:54 Cindy: Yeah, awesome. Maria, I'm so, so excited for the future of this podcast and I'm so grateful for you and your willingness to take it on. I do want to say just a little farewell to the listeners. Thank you for being with me, some of you for five years. It's truly been my honor to be able to have these conversations and show up for you. I do have another podcast if you are interested in consulting, you can go to confessionswithjessandcindy.com and we talk about consulting in the nonprofit sector. So please do stay in touch. But I know you are in amazing hands with Maria, and she is going to guide you on a fantastic journey of small nonprofits, the conversations we need to be having and how we can practice things in new and exciting ways. So yeah, I guess this is my farewell. Thank you all again. And Maria, thank you so much for taking over.
00:29:58 Maria: Yeah, so happy too. Thank you for all the work that you put in, like educating your audience and making sure that they have all the resources available that they could ever dream of, having these amazing conversations with these like top voices in our sector. It's been definitely really interesting to see your business grow over the last few years and I am just going to keep my eyes peeled on you.
00:30:21 Cindy: Likewise, we'll be watching each other.
00:30:24 Maria: So excited.
00:30:26 Cindy: All right, well thanks again for tuning in and I won't see you next time but Maria will.
00:30:32 Maria: Okay, bye for now.
00:30:41 Maria: Thank you for listening to another episode of The Small Nonprofit. If you want to continue the conversation, feel free to connect with our guest directly or find me on LinkedIn. Let’s keep moving money, the mission, and prioritizing our wellbeing. Bye for now.
