The Art of Letting Go as a Nonprofit Leader with Mike Prosserman
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What if walking away from the organization you've built is the bravest and most selfless choice you can make? Struggling to let go, battling founder’s syndrome, feeling like an organization will fall apart without you, and putting your life above your work—these are emotions many leaders in our sector face. Today's must-listen episode is a conversation with one such leader who tackled these issues head-on. Then, he turned that experience into expertise he now shares with others.
Mike Prosserman shares his story in this episode; from founder, to leaving the organization, to helping others transition gracefully from their roles. Mike ‘Piecez’ Prosserman is a bestselling author, professional B-Boy (breakdancer), university instructor, and certified coach who specializes in scaling non-profits, team culture, and succession. In Michael’s book Building Unity: Leading a Non-Profit From Spark to Succession, he shares practical tools to building resilient and responsive organizations. He founded and scaled Unity Charity, a grassroots movement using Hip-Hop to improve youth mental health. Through EPIC leadership, Michael is empowering non-profit leaders to build more resilient and responsible organizations.
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Key Episode Highlights:
Recognizing Founder Syndrome: Mike shares his own struggle with letting go of an organization he started and how he overcame the 'founder's trap' to ensure the best for both his well-being and the nonprofit's future.
The Journey to Distance: Departing from his role was not a snap decision. Mike walks us through the reflective and brave process of distancing himself from his nonprofit, setting a precedent for leadership transitions that place personal health and organizational growth at the forefront.
Teaching Leaders to Prioritize Themselves: Now, Mike's mission is to educate and support other nonprofit leaders and founders. He discusses how he assists them in forging paths toward healthier work-life balances and prioritizing their needs along with their organization's objectives.
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Watch this episode on Youtube: https://youtu.be/cgxK1coghmU
Links and Resources:
Mike Prosserman (Instagram): https://www.instagram.com/bboypiecez/
Mike Prosserman (Linkedin): https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelprosserman/
Connect with Maria on LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mariario/
Support the show: https://www.buzzsprout.com/208666/supporters/new
Transcript:
00:00:00 Mike: My identity was tied so deeply in this thing my whole life. I don't see another life outside of this organization. And somewhere deep down, I have this weird and like, kind of crappy feeling that it, like, almost owes me something for like the years I worked there for free or the sacrifice that I had given to make this possible. And you know, when someone complains about their pay, I'm like, do you even realize how hard it was to get you that job? Like these are the things that the voices that were coming up in my head, I'm like, Ooh, I don't like that person. I don't want to be that guy. Like, but I was, it was just happening.
00:00:37 Maria: Hi friends, ever wondered how you could turn your big ideas into results? I'm Maria Rio, your go-to guide for helping small nonprofits have real world impacts. Together, let's reimagine a better sector, tackle systemic issues, and yes, raise some serious cash. Welcome back to The Small Nonprofit, the podcast where your passion meets action.
00:01:08 Maria: Hi, everyone. Welcome back to The Small Nonprofit podcast. Today, my guest is Mike Prosserman, who I'm super excited to have on and share all his amazing insight with you all. So I'll just turn it over to Mike. Mike, tell us a little bit about yourself.
00:01:23 Mike: Hi, Maria. Happy to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah, I'm super excited to be here. It's Mike. Preferred pronouns he/him. I'm the CEO at EPIC Leadership now. Former ED at Unity Charity, founder of Unity. And yeah, just really excited to be on the show here today.
00:01:43 Maria: Me too. I think there's like a thousand things that we could talk about and we often do go in a lot of different directions. But today I really wanted to chat about what it was like founding an organization, why you decided to do that, on all the fun challenges that come along with that. So maybe let's start at the beginning. How did you come up with the idea of founding an organization, what inspired that?
00:02:07 Mike: It started pretty young for me. I was in high school actually, which seems like decades ago now, especially with my bald head. But I was in the breaking, break dancing as others may know it, more popularly known term, but we call it breaking community since I was a kid, since I was about 12. Dance was just an outlet for the stress going on in my life, in my personal life. You know, I had to really deal with and learn to adapt to mental health challenges around me as a young person and really just found dance as an outlet for some of that stress, but also a community that I'm still very connected to to this day.
00:02:51 Mike: So all that led to starting an organization, huge part of my life, huge part of my identity and the outlet that really helped me get sort of support as a young person, not like, support group, but like, go to a place where I felt valued and connected. And yeah, we grew this thing from a high school class project to eventually about five years later, like a nonprofit and charity. And then about 15 years after that, you know, we grew the team as, with artists and amazing staff. And I decided to leave so that I didn't ruin the thing that I loved so much.
00:03:29 Maria: I didn't know it started as a high school project.
00:03:31 Mike: It did. It did. I was 16 and it was a… our entrepreneurship class teacher said we had to run a venture and give the money to a charity. So we created an event called Hip Hop Away from Violence, which was its very first name.
00:03:48 Maria: No way. That's amazing. So then how did that continue to be a project for five years? And why did you decide to register as an organization?
00;03:58 Mike: It's a good question. I get asked that question a lot because a lot of folks I know are, like trying these ideas. They have this, they see this issue in their community and they're, like doing stuff to address it. But they're like, do I need to register a nonprofit? And honestly, it took us about five years of like, running these. First, it was just a show in schools to raise awareness, use hip hop as an outlet to help young people share their stories ultimately, but also to just share the art form that ultimately is just such a powerful tool to create engagement on so many levels in life, I believe.
00:04:40 Mike: So we did that in one school, we brought it to three more schools. I was literally a teenager, like going to principals in our area. And then eventually, we get in, five schools and 10 schools. And then we went to York, I went to York University and we started a student club. So actually Unity took like five forms of registration before it actually became a charity. We were an unregistered group, just knocking on principals' doors. We eventually became a student club at York University. So we were able to recruit volunteers. Then we became trustee by an organization called Leave Out Violence. So I joined their board and they sort of hosted us as a program of theirs. So Hip Hop Away from Violence began the program.
00:05:21 Mike: And then finally we decided, let's go for non-profit and apply for a charity. We actually got denied as a charity, so we had to resubmit the application. So there were like five forms of registration all along the way. And that was after five years of doing it. I only decided I wanted to register a nonprofit to answer your actual question once I was graduating university. And I said, do I go and get a job in the sector? Or does this sort of justify standing on its own two legs? And also the board that we were being supported by as a program, Leave Out Violence, they were sort of suggesting you should break off and start your own thing if you want to continue, because it was getting bigger under their umbrella and they weren't as comfortable with that at that particular time.
00:06:06 Maria: That's fair. It seems like a lot to handle like, as the late teens, early 20s. Did you have a lot of support or how did that work?
00:06:14 Mike: Yeah, I mean, it was a lot. We were literally knocking on schools’ doors and calling, cold calling principals. But, you know, for us, being able to share our form with other young people was just so obvious as, like, a powerful thing that we wanted to do more of. And we saw the impact. So we're like, you know what, this is motivating. But you know, I was a full time student at the time. So it was tough. We were recruiting volunteers all the time. We were paying the artists since day one, we always paid the artists who were involved in the program. But it was very, like touch and go. Like, it was not easy, but you know, I think those first few years of an organization are critical in just sort of toughening it out before you can decide if it's viable, which kind of sucks because a lot of things that should exist, you know, may not get that runway to get off the ground.
00:07:12 Mike: And I think a lot of people take for granted that things started somewhere and it takes a lot of inertia to get them off the ground. And sometimes great ideas never fly because of how much time and dedication that takes. Sometimes before, everyone's able to be paid properly, which is just not realistic for most people. So I was lucky to be able to do that for a few years. But honestly, if you're not, then again, good ideas often don't get off the ground, which is honestly a tragedy because there's so many things that are needed out there. And sometimes there's clunkier institutions that are saying they're doing these things, but not actually doing them. So it requires someone to rise up from the community and actually, you know, do something about it. But the systems and structures are not in place to support that, which is just terrible. And we need another way to get great ideas off the ground, in my opinion.
00:08:10 Maria: Yeah, for sure. So how old were you when you became, like a founder of a nonprofit?
00:08:15 Mike: The nonprofit, I was probably 20, 21, 20. But the idea was, you know, 16. So it took that five years. I didn't know what I was doing. Like I still, we had no idea what we were doing. It was completely, I mean, we got denied for charitable status. That's how much we didn't know what we were doing. We got an articling law student to do it for free to do the paperwork for us, which was clearly a bad idea.
00:08:45 Mike: No offense to that person, but they're great. We just didn't know what we were doing and we would take our best guess and hope it would work. And usually it didn't work the first or second or third time, but we just kept going back at it. And eventually, you know, we'd get the result for a different result that was, you know, good enough.
00:09:03 Maria: Can you tell me a little bit more about your story? Like post incorporating, like between incorporating and leaving the organization, what did that look like, I guess, like systems processes wise, but also for yourself as someone who is, you know, putting all this together at the beginning to have a more formalized movement.
00:09:22 Mike: Yeah, I mean, there's a lot that went into that. I wrote a book about it. Because I wanted to capture all that knowledge, but really the beginning stages, I'd say I'll start there was just getting some funding in the door so that we could pay people to do the work. So that was critical. And we were actually debating, to continue doing this work or not based on getting our first grant proposal. So that was actually very significant. It was from the Laidlaw Foundation and it was, I think, $38,000. And when it hit, we were very happy because we were able to pay a few people part time until we were able to then write three more grants while we were obviously doing the work. So we were doing programs in 15 schools.
00:10:13 Mike: At that time, the program looked different than it eventually evolved as we learned more. And I think the biggest thing was we were just always open to learning. So we build our fundraising and we build our program and then we build our fundraising and build our program. And we kind of couldn't get too far ahead of ourselves because you can’t do the work and make all these promises if you don't have the capacity or team or are paying people barely to do that work. So it was a little bit of this like every time we got a bit more funding, we did a bit more work and ideally did it better. And every time we got a bit more funding, we keep going up and up and up and up. And it went from one staff to three staff to five staff to 12 and then eventually 15.
00:10:55 Mike: Again, as we were able to get more funding, we were able to do more work, whether that be community programs, evaluate the impact of our programs, you know, go into new communities and work and partner with staff from those communities. Eventually young people who grew up in as part of the program began to run a lot of those programs and we would train them as artists so that they could facilitate as artists educators. So really there was like a big full circle that we were sort of creating. So it was really important for us to pay attention to alumni because they were able to, I mean, a lot of them still work at Unity even five years after I've left, which is just a beautiful thing to see.
00:11:32 Mike: And for me, that full circle impact was probably the most important thing because it was a real testament to the fact that this not only worked, but it was more sustainable and I didn't have to be the old guy getting older there and holding it all together, actually the next young person coming up could take it and hold part of the organization. And then someone else coming up could hold part of the organization. And for me, that was sustainability because having someone be at the helm of it forever is just like, it's not sustainable for the person. It's not sustainable for the org. In my opinion, it's not great for, community to depend on some sort of savior, it's just not the right… it's not the right formula. But a lot of organizations operate that way.
00:12:18 Mike: So it's really how do you empower people on your team and within the community to be employed at that, your organization to take this organization to a more sustained place and serve the need better ultimately. So that's my little ramble on how we built it.
00:12:34 Maria: You make it sound so easy. It seems like everything went very, very smoothly.
00:12:39 Mike: It didn't at all. I… Actually it was so stressful that I burnt out, developed a mental health condition and left because of it. So let me say it was not easy. I have five years of recovery now that I could talk about it in retrospect so lightly, but when I was in it, I was not sleeping 12 meetings a day, every day working on Sundays, working at evenings, never taking breaks. Even when I went away, I would be working. Like it was just relentless and then my body and my, actually my mind was just like, Nope, I'm not letting you do this. And it just, I just, I started to develop anxiety, unfortunately. And it was, I had two weeks where I was just, like crying, and I couldn't do anything. And it was just, I didn't even know I felt, like, ashamed. And I called my board chair. I'm like, Look, I got to take some time off.
00:13:31 Mike: So I took two weeks off. And I was not better when I got back. So I was just like, something is not good here. So I can much more easily talk about it in retrospect because it feels like a story about me. And now it's been five years ago, but when it was happening, I think there's this burnout culture that we created and also a lot of nonprofits enable and create because you're doing good work. And my body's just like, no, screw you. You're not doing anything else and it's irreversible. Like I've had to live with that since that happened.
00:14:06 Maria: Two weeks and then fix anxiety. Lesson learned, you know? The burnout is so real and the long-term impacts are so, so real. So I'm glad that you were able to do the right thing for yourself, but also now bring that experience to other EDs, other founders who are having those similar struggles. Because I think it's something that many EDs go through and just know what to talk to.
00:14:34 Mike: Totally. And I think as much as sometimes it's necessary to work hard to, you know, deliver on a project, a big project, or, you know, to put out some proposals or manage a challenging staff transition. You got to do those things. But if you're going from crisis to crisis, which we often were, and I feel like a lot of EDs that I speak to are, then something's got to change. And I'm a big believer. We do not need to create a burnout culture, but there are elements of nonprofits that push us to build them that way. And then you're kind of building your own challenging situation.
00:15:12 Mike: So, and funders have demands that are sometimes unreasonable. And you know, we learned to push back on some of those and maybe negotiate and say, this is what we need and how we need it. And we've walked away from some funding because of that. And you know, there's always that example that comes to mind of when we took $10,000 or $5,000, and it was more work than, you know, someone who was giving us a hundred. And in my opinion, now, looking back, I would much more quickly say no to those things. And we began to, but at the time, we just said yes to everything. And we got ourselves entangled in all these positions and our staff.
00:15:54 Mike: Honestly, let's say this is your job, 85% of it and then the 15% of it that this is random $5,000 side project is actually the source of majority of their stress and the energy that they just don't need to be losing on this project. So focus, boundaries, saying no to money, which seems impossible and unreasonable. But I think that's what I'd go back and do differently to alleviate or like, kind of smooth out that burnout culture a little bit because I created it. Like, I'm not going to, you know, BSU and say I did otherwise. It was like my own doing and the teams once we got it going. But I was leading by example and I needed to set a better example, which I didn't.
00:16:41 Maria: Yeah. I love that self-reflection because many people just don't have time. You know, they think they don't have time and they don't put in the work to kind of see that. Now that you've had some time to kind of leave the organization behind, what do you think were the pros and cons of you leaving when you did?
00:16:57 Mike: I don't know if we could have... If I stayed any longer, I feel like I was already hurting the organization, but it was like micro and I think it would have grown over time. And I guess the reason I even noticed that, and it's kind of a deeper conversation, is I really did see a lot of my mentors who were either founders or longtime EDs and I would just learn from them and they had great advice. But one thing that it seemed unilateral that they were not great at in a lot of cases was leaving and letting go.
00:17:29 Mike: And I saw the impact of that at their organizations, some of their organizations that are now no longer in existence. Because of that, in my opinion, some of them who hang on too tightly towards the end and either got let go or had their own health challenges and had to step away, all not benefiting the organization. And when you think about that, you sort of say, well, why did they do that? And that's kind of the interesting nugget that I feel like doesn't get spoken about a lot is the why like, why would someone sort of hurt the thing they care so much about?
00:18:08 Mike: And my quick answer to that is it's complicated. And the longer version is, you know, my identity was tied so deeply in this thing, my whole life, I don't see another life outside of this organization. And somewhere deep down, I have this weird and crappy feeling that it almost owes me something for the years I worked there for free or the sacrifice that I had given to make this possible. And when someone complains about their pay, I'm like, "Do you even realize how hard it was to get you that job?" Like these are the things that the voices that were coming up in my head. I'm like, "Ooh, I don't like that person. I don't want to be that guy." But I was just happening.
00:18:51 Mike: So I can see, and I'm not saying that's everyone's experience, but that was mine. And I could see people get sort of salty and sour and resentful and they're hanging on to this thing that is changing and it's not that thing anymore. So they try to force it to still be that thing and it's just not and do it the old way and it's just not relevant. So, I knew I didn't want to become that person and I was feeling those weird feelings and there's other feelings in that mix but those are the prominent ones.
00:19:23 Mike: So, I said I'm going to leave and completely disconnect. Not be involved on the board. I know people who join the board and are still on the board of things they founded and they're just, you know, the voice that everyone fears or the voice that just generally makes unreasonable and sort of unsustainable requests. And I'm just like, "I want to be disconnected so that it has the opportunity to see if this cause was ever meant to be." And if it wasn't meant to be, let it die. And if it was the community, the staff, the new leader, the board, hopefully we'll all collectively hold it up. And if it wasn't meant to be, it wasn't meant to be. I think we need to let go of the fact that everything needs to exist forever.
00:20:11 Maria: I think, I don't know, that was something that I really respected about you before even meeting you, just like knowing Unity's story and getting to kind of understand the history of it. Knowing that you walked away for the betterment of the organization is so powerful. I don't know if you give yourself enough credit for that because many people can't do it. Like they just, it's their baby. As you said, like it's so tied to your identity. Like how do you even see past that? So I don't know.
00:20:39 Maria: It's really interesting to hear you talk about it because it's not a perspective that we often get to hear, especially from, you know, a more balanced point of view instead of like very fresh, raw perspective of someone who was pushed out because it wasn't working anymore or wrote themselves into their bylaws forever. He just went about it the wrong way. So I really appreciate how you went about it and how difficult that must have been.
00:21:6 Mike: Yeah, no, thank you. I do take a lot of pride in it and I want to lead by example. I think the reason, another reason why I did that is that I can say there is another way.
And if you want to do this another way that is better for the people at your organization, the community ultimately, and debatably yourself, there is another way. And I think that's a lot of, it's a small piece of work that I've been focused on. I do now speak to founders, longtime EDs before they've made their announcement. I find that is the best time to think this stuff through extensively.
00:21:45 Mike: I didn't have that benefit. I just kind of just said, this is what I want to do. And I just went on the roller coaster and actually didn't realize what roller coaster I was about to get on, which was a horrible time in my life. But I still, I'm thankful I did it. Looking back, now I give people that space to reflect and say, what do you want? And just asking yourself this question right now, everyone's going to leave their job. Unless you're invincible or like have some pill to life that keeps you alive forever, you're going to leave or you're going to die on the job. It's just facts.
00:22:17 Mike: So knowing that, what do you need to, you know, in your next step, what do you want? What are you looking for? What are some of your dreams? And what are some of your bare minimums, like things you need to have? And then what does your organization need? Like you've been there long enough, you probably know a lot of what it needs and what it doesn't need. And maybe you don't know all those things. But you know, I sort of ask people to draw two circles and say, what do I need? What does my organization need?
00:22:40 Mike: Where do some of those things overlap and where are they different? And I think that to me is just such a powerful exercise because you can acknowledge where things that benefit you in your future do not necessarily benefit your organization in its future. So you can still have those things be true, but then you can acknowledge, you know, how you get some of those things that you need and maybe negotiate them with your board or, you know, maybe plan them throughout your transition. So that the things, you can leave at a certain time in a certain way.
00:23:12 Mike: I mean, in many cases, I think founders and EDs for a long time do deserve that. But they get sort of attached to this, like feeling like the organization owes them something. And sometimes they go down fighting, which is just, it doesn't help anyone. Like it hurts everyone. The staff often will quit because they're like, "Screw this. Why would I stay around for this?" You know, silliness. The board resigns, the new ED is like, what the heck did I just step into? Like, "Why is this happening?" Because they weren't given the full picture or maybe they are now in a deficit because that's happened twice.
00:23:50 Mike: So what I'm saying is it's all preventable. And from my perspective, unfortunately, the more work of this that I do, I realize how close organizations are to not existing and all it takes is two bad hires or like two, you know, missed hires and a ED who just doesn't help move things along and the organization's done. So I just don't want to see great organizations die because of bad transitions.
00:24:16 Maria: It just seems like, you know, being an ED, I've never been an ED. So for all our listeners, I've never been an ED. But to me, it always seemed like a very like isolating, very, I don't want to say like thankless job, but very difficult for very little reward. And having other spaces to communicate with EDs have been popping up more and more. But I wonder if there's any spaces for other founders to talk to each other about their specific feelings and thoughts and problems that arise that that EDs now have more access to than they did before. I don't know if you've seen any of those spaces crop up.
00:24:51 Mike: Yes and no. I will always, if I get the sense that someone's a founder, I'll always give them my time. Like one to one, always. I always wanna see this transition happen better and see if the person has the capacity to move in that direction. I'd say most people do most people want this to happen in that way. It's a really difficult conversation to have a lot of people have never had that conversation when I speak to them or have thought about it. But they're like, I can't think about this. I don't know how to think about this. I can't talk to it about anyone.
00:25:23 Mike: And as soon as I mentioned it to my board chair, they think I'm leaving. So like, "Oh, you know, I get it." And actually, I've had people who mentioned it to the board chair, and actually, they've misinterpreted it and went all the way down the wrong avenue, not to scare people, but more just, you know, you do have find ways to reflect. The work we do at EPIC, I think is probably one of the few spaces that we provide confidential, you know, we call them brave spaces where people over year after year build trust. So it's not like a cohort or like a, it's not like a one year program, for example, where you're just sort of spit out at the end of it.
00:25:57 Mike: It's where you build a relationship with a bunch of EDs. And then after that deepens, that's when we have some real talks about stuff like this. I see a lot of conferences and programs, but I don't see a lot that are like year after year about that relationship piece, you know? So I kind of created the peer support program I wish I had honestly with EPIC and it's beautiful. Like I can't, you know, I was about to stop doing it once we had our little guy two years ago because it was the first year was quite overwhelming.
00:26:30 Mike: But the members just kept saying, we want to sign up again, we want to sign up again. And actually one of our... Two of our cohorts are going into their fifth year together and are about to be in their sixth year together. So just imagine that, like what group of EDs is able to hang out for six years together? Like it just doesn't exist. And there's so many fellowships that are going into their 29th separate group of great leaders. And I'm like, "Why don't you get these leaders together in some sort of an alumni group where we can have ongoing conversations."
00:27:03 Mike: And honestly, I actually don't know of anyone else doing it, which is why we created it. And it was very frustrating to me because there are so many great fellowships out there that are one week, one month, one year. But for some reason people don't do it year after year. I think they always want to bring in that fresh new batch of leaders. And I'm like, "But what about the people who are doing it that you selected six years ago, who are still now struggling even more," it's just capitalistic structure where we just kind of want to get the new thing in and support the new group and then just leave them in the desert after they're done the cohort. It's like, what are you doing?
00:27:42 Mike: So long story short, I would love to see more programs be, you know, year after year after year after year instead of these like one off blips where you go to bath down on the mountain, breathe fresh air and then they kick you out and you're like, Oh, I'm alone again. So that's not like, it feels like a promo for EPIC, but I would love to see other people do it because we don't have the capacity to do this for the amount of need that's out there. So if you're listening and you run a fellowship, that's one year, just consider a multi-year program.
00:28:15 Maria: I've also seen people target this peer support approach through WhatsApp, right? So they set up a WhatsApp group between like five or six EDs and they do kind of peer support in a very informal manner. So, you know, EPIC is doing it a little bit more formalized, which is great, but I'd love to hear kind of the struggles that EDs present to each other in these kinds of conversations. Is it like, I'm completely burnt out, I don't know what to do, I just want to leave, or is it more tangible? Like we're facing a deficit, what do I do? What are EDs struggling with?
00:28:53 Mike: Yeah, it's both. I think when that trust builds and you know, some people get to that point at different times in their journey. In EPIC and some people don't leave and that's totally cool. But some of the issues we hear are like the tactical stuff, HR stuff. There's so many challenges right now with HR, people can't afford to keep competitive and in today's market costs are going up, all the stuff we've heard. The interesting stuff is what you would we don't hear and not to get into specifics because it is confidential, but sort of as a broad scape theme that I do see is EDs are actually struggling a lot.
00:29:31 Mike: And they are burning out and they're in many ways, months, weeks away from quitting almost at any given point. And it's unbelievable how much pressure is on some of these leaders to keep the ship running, especially smaller, much smaller organizations with let's say one of 10 staff where you're just like, this won't exist. This will fall apart within three months if someone isn't consistently sort of throwing things up in the air as teams get bigger, you know, I've noticed from some of our members that sort of gets sort of distributed a little bit more, but the smaller nonprofits, which I just kind of Googled it the other day, I think was like 80% of nonprofits are under I looked it up on the charitydata.ca website, like you can search by size.
00:30:21 Mike: And I think it was like 80 or 85% were under a million dollars or even under $500,000. It was majority of charities are this size. And that's charities, nonprofits as a whole other ballgame. But yeah, I was surprised how many people we've supported through mental health challenges, physical... everything from cancer to loss of loved ones to have bringing, welcoming new members to their family, you name it, every life issue, I think we touched and supported folks in different ways through.
00:30:58 Mike: And a lot of the times, what I found shocking is they don't even tell their teams that they're going through some of this stuff until maybe they absolutely have to, which is sometimes like six months, one year, two years later, which is interesting because EDs hide, you know, they try to fold up this like, "Oh, I got my stuff together when in all cases they're human, but in most cases they really don't." And that sort of imposter syndrome, especially for first time EDs is heavy and it's real. And people, you know,
put yourself in the shoes if you've never been an ED. You're just kind of making it up as you go along. And we see that a lot in our groups. And there's people in our groups who have been EDs for 16 years, and they're still going through these struggles.
00:31:45 Mike: So to me, it's not necessarily just about new EDs. That imposter syndrome continues to resurface itself. Like why am I running this organization? I'm just like a person. We hear that a lot. I'm just like any other person on this team. Why is so much responsibility on me? It's just like doesn't make sense. And in some of the smaller nonprofits, they're actually not getting paid what they should be, which is even more like, why am I doing this job? Like we hear that a lot too. Unfortunately, we hear a lot of bad board members. I'll say this because it's so common where board members are inappropriate, in the worst case, bullies.
00:32:24 Mike: And, you know, a lot of EDs leave these jobs because they don't want to deal with terrible board members. So if you are on a board, don't just take it seriously. Think about how you can really support not only the ED, but the organization to be successful. Don't create make work projects. There's so many things, but really, when there is a toxic board member, we have to find better ways to get rid of them because there's no good structure in nonprofits to do so.
00:32:54 Mike: Unfortunately, and it often becomes a, okay, it's either this board member or I'm leaving as the ED. And you know, there's a head to head and I've seen both scenarios happen in our groups where that had to had happened and the board member left or that had to had happened and the ED left and it's usually the ED left because the power position is in favor of the board member who's their boss. But sometimes the board member will be like, "Oh, fine, you don't want me to volunteer, I'll go away." That's the best case scenario. But you know, everything's nuanced.
00:33:24 Mike: I think the context is the most important in any one of these situations. There's no good or bad person. The context is like, you know, how do we work through these challenges in the way that's best for ultimately the community, right? Like that you're serving. And if you lose that question, something is missing. So we do encourage our members to revisit like what is best for the community that you're serving. What is best for your, the health of your team members, what it's the best for your health.
00:33:52 Mike: And so it's like asking the right questions too, so that they, you know, make decisions that they're proud of, even if they don't have the outcome that, you know, they were hoping for. Because you can't control the outcome, but you can sort of say, no, I'm making this decision with values, even though it's a messed up situation. And I'm going to live with whatever the consequences because I know in my heart that I did what I felt and what the community felt is the right thing assuming that consult with the community.
00:34:23 Maria: Yeah, it's like taking some agency back into your own life. Like you don't have to keep going from fire to fire, crisis to crisis, put up with bullying or anything like that. It's kind of how can I make my life what it should be, what I want it to be?
00:34:38 Mike: Yeah, within this very difficult job, like straight up, it's not a thankless job, but it's definitely one of the hardest jobs, I think, you know, out there, because you're expected to perform at the highest level with not a lot of resources, you're supposed to get resourceful, quote unquote. And sometimes that's not a good thing. You know, it's like pushing us to take advantage of people, which is absolutely what we should not be doing. So I always sort of say to our members, are you paying people a living wage? Are you... is your mental... where's your mental health out right now? And it's not bad to work through difficult things and face, you know, big challenges.
00:35:17 Mike: But if you're not doing some of the basic human rights things, like you might want to reevaluate if you're approaching this issue in a way that's a way that you want to continue because it can be very harmful. Like staff of great organizations, quote unquote, are often, you know, overworked, underpaid and not treated with the same human rights that they're expected to treat their community with, quote unquote. So like, why is that happening? It's a problem. A serious problem. I shouldn't laugh. It's real. And I think we need to reevaluate how we treat our teams in addition to how we treat or support our community.
00:35:57 Maria: Yeah, I absolutely agree. Thank you, Mike, so much for joining us today. This has been a really great conversation. And thank you so much for sharing so openly and vulnerably about everything that you're seeing and everything that you've experienced. I'm really happy for EDs to have you as a resource and found this time to use a resource to at least connect with or talk to about as someone who has been through a lot of this and for you to be creating those bonds between other EDs is so special. So thanks again for sharing with all of us. Where can people find you if they want to connect with you?
00:36:30 Mike: Yeah, no, thanks. It's been a pleasure. If you want to check us out, if you go to epicleadership.ca, I might even include a link to our transitions report, which is not right on the site where they can read about sort of interviews and stories of anonymized founders who have left their organizations and some of the unbelievable things that happened. So I'll send you a link for that. I think it's a really neat report that might relate to today's conversation. And then also, you know, the book on the site, epicleadership.ca. If you want to see me spin on my head, Instagram @bboypiecez. It's a completely different world of mine. That's who I really am. I mean, I am all the things that I am, honestly, but that's where my heart lies.
00:37:17 Maria: Okay, so we'll have all of that linked in the show notes below. And yeah, just another final thank you to you, Mike. And thank you all for tuning in for this episode of the Small Nonprofit Podcast. I am Maria Rio and we'll chat next time. Bye for now.
00:37:35 Maria: Thank you for listening to another episode of The Small Nonprofit. If you want to continue the conversation, feel free to connect with our guests directly or find me on LinkedIn. Let's keep moving money to mission and prioritizing our well-being. Bye for now.
