Trust-Based Grant Making with Megan Lorius
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How can we shift power dynamics in philanthropy and create more equitable partnerships between funders and nonprofits?
In this episode of The Small Nonprofit Podcast, I chat with Megan Lorius, the Managing Director at the Sprott Foundation, a Toronto-based foundation that grants funds to organizations seeking to solve hunger and homelessness.
We dive into the principles of trust-based philanthropy and how the Sprott Foundation, as a funder, applies them to build strong, equitable relationships with grantees. Megan shares valuable insights and advice for both funders and fundraisers on how to create a more collaborative and impactful philanthropic landscape.
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Key Episode Highlights:
Soliciting and Acting on Feedback: We explore the significance of open communication and feedback loops between funders and grantees, fostering a culture of collaboration and continuous improvement.
Transparency and Open Dialogue: Megan highlights the value of transparency in all interactions, ensuring that both funders and grantees have a clear understanding of expectations and goals.
Shifting Power Dynamics: We delve into the concept of shifting power dynamics in philanthropy, empowering grantees to have a stronger voice in decision-making processes.
Links and Resources:
Connect with Megan Lorius on Linkedin
Check out the Sprott Foundation website
Connect with Maria on LinkedIn
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Watch this episode on Youtube.
Transcript:
00:00:00 Megan: Know and understand the sector that you want to fund in and be funding from the heart. If you're a philanthropist, you should be looking to support something that you are passionate about.
00:00:16 Maria: Hi friends, ever wondered how you could turn your big ideas into results? I'm Maria Rio, your go-to guide for helping small nonprofits have real world impacts. Together, let's reimagine a better sector, tackle systemic issues, and yes, raise some serious cash. Welcome back to The Small Nonprofit, the podcast where your passion meets action.
00:00:46 Maria: Hi, everyone. Good morning, good evening. Grab yourself a cup of coffee or a cup of tea. We're going to try all things trust-based philanthropy today. So my guest today is Megan, who I've had the chance to actually work with as a fundraiser. So I'm really excited to introduce her to you and have her share all her tidbits on her side of philanthropy, which you'll know what I mean in just a second. Hi, Megan.
00:01:14 Megan: Hi, Maria. It's great to be here.
00:01:16 Maria: It's so lovely to have you. I'm really excited about this conversation because I feel like people don't usually get to hear from people in your role. So maybe you could introduce yourself a little bit and tell our audience what you do.
00:01:30 Megan: Yeah, I am Megan Lorius and I'm the managing director at the Sprott Foundation. We're a Toronto-based foundation that grants across the country to organizations that are seeking to solve hunger and homelessness. We began that work in 1988. That's a long time. It's a pervasive issue. It's not solved yet, but we're seeking to make sure that everyone is housed and fed fresh, healthy food. So that's our funding mission.
00:02:06 Megan: And we're big proponents of Trust-Based Philanthropy. So I'm really happy that that's the topic. I think that label was applied to us by observing how we operated. So that's a lovely position to be in. But I do still consider myself a student of Trust-Based Philanthropy, as I think we all should be lifelong learners in our pursuits and in our life generally.
00:02:33 Maria: I just want to give you a huge shout out because just like working with the Sprott Foundation while I was an in-house fundraiser director of development, you made things so easy. So just some of the things that funders do that are really, really difficult for staff will be like, write this 140 page grant. Like I've actually done 140 page grant for $400,000 a year. Or upload every resume of everyone on the leadership team.
00:03:02 Maria: Basically, they're just asking you for your grandmother's blood type or something like that. Like ridiculous, really in-depth, super kind of paternalistic questions that are kind of micromanaging everything that you do. And the Sprott Foundation was never like that. Even for a grant request or a multi-year renewal, it was always like, just send us a quick paragraph of what's been happening. You are already so good at updating us. We don't need to be wined and dined.
00:03:30 Maria: And then the other thing that really stood out to me as a funder is that we did this petition around increased social assistance rates and wages in Ontario because that's obviously one of the main things that keeps people in poverty, keeps them food insecure, X, Y, and Z. And we asked our community to sign it. And of course that includes our community of donors and the Sprott Foundation signed it.
00:03:53 Megan: Of course, absolutely.
00:03:57 Maria: Doesn't usually happen though. Like sometimes funders are like, Oh, don't get too like political or food is a political by nature topic. Like it's people experiencing poverty and that's why they're...
00:04:07 Megan: It is, it is. And we very much have the philosophy that we're here to help. We're not here to impede. And having you fill out a 100-page application form for funding is impeding your work at the end of the day. It's taking time away from your frontline mission work and seeking other donors and just basically slowing you down. I'm glad you brought up that example actually, cause it reminds me that we are at our nature at the Sprott Foundation and the Sprott family, they're quite entrepreneurial.
00:04:45 Megan: And so they support all facets of a way that an organization approaches things. And we look to the organization to know best how they should be operating and we don't stand in the way and we're there to support where we can. So signing something, absolutely.
00:05:04 Megan: As my colleague, Juliana Sprott would say, she's our chief giving officer, we're a family foundation. We're not looking to be reelected. We don't care if we step on people's toes on the way through. We're not nervous about what perceptions will be out there about where we put our line in the sand. So we're flexible that way and we can be supportive where organizations need us.
00:05:31 Maria: And just talking about Juliana too, I always found it so interesting how open she was to a lot of the things that come with trust-based philanthropy and community-centric fundraising. She was just always so open to learning more and was actually teaching her family about some of these things. I love that about her and I'm really excited to talk to her on the podcast as well on how she adopted that mentality. Just quickly, I wonder if you could walk us through principles of trust-based philanthropy and how the Sprott Foundation applies it.
00:06:02 Megan: Yeah. So what we discovered, and as I mentioned, is we kept on being given the label of Trust-Based Philanthropists. And it came very intuitively for the Sprott Foundation to put their trust in the charities that they were supporting and to support them and their needs in how they determined. So from the very beginning, since the '80s, that was the approach they took and they really supported organizations in being entrepreneurial, as I said.
00:06:38 Megan: So looking for new ways to approach an old problem and taking a place-centric approach, looking at all of the variables that are unique to this situation and designing your own solution. So with that approach just emerged really by nature, the applying of what have emerged as Trust-Based Philanthropy principles. And there is the Trust-Based Philanthropy Project that provides tools and is putting words in a framework to what has been burbling for quite some time amongst foundations to be more supportive and partner with organizations.
00:07:21 Megan: So one of the things that we have almost always done is provide multi-year funding. And multi-year unrestricted funding is kind of principle one of trust-based philanthropy. And I say we're still working on being completely unrestricted in our funding. We do still find that there are areas where we stipulate because, for example, we're supporting children's sporting program, but the meal component. And so we do want the budget for the meals protected.
00:07:54 Megan: And we do stipulate that it's to feed fresh healthy food to these young athletes so that they can be their best, for example. But we are moving quite a bit more into unrestricted funding because I think we've been at this long enough and we have a long time grantees that we have established a mutual trust with. We know them so well, and they have such a long track record of stewarding funds well that unrestricted just makes sense. And so that's something that we have learned as we've gone along.
00:08:33 Maria: You touched on this. One of the other principles is to simplify and streamline paperwork.
00:08:40 Megan: We're a big proponent of that because we don't want reams and reams of material to read. And we do the work. That's another principle of Trust-Based Philanthropy is that you don't put all of the work onto the grantee. And we really believe that, we really think that you should be working frontline to support those that you serve and not spending your time reporting to us. So those for us really go hand in hand.
00:09:12 Megan: And for example, with our locations for funding, we often will bring the final reporting and the application for renewed funding together. Just give us your report on what you did with the last round of funding. That's your proof that you are a good steward of the funds and that you're a trusted partner. And then just ask us for renewed funding. Demonstrate you did what you said you would do with the previous round of funding. Explain why it's still needed. Unfortunately, it is often still needed. And generally, what you'll do with the next round of funding.
00:09:52 Megan: And I think because we work so closely with every grantee and we have a working relationship and we're so knowledgeable about what they're doing, where they're at, what the landscape is doing around them, Juliana and I are well positioned to go to our board, do the heavy lifting as it were to inform our board, make sure that they completely understand what the charity is doing, how they're addressing their mission, how they operate, that everyone is a solid partner involved.
00:10:30 Megan: And because of that, because of the back and forth relationship, one of the other principles of trust-based philanthropy is soliciting and acting on feedback. And so because we're very informal and we don't agree with tons of paperwork. It's not like we're out there surveying and asking our grantees to fill something out and tell us how we're doing. We're talking with them and we're very open to feedback. I think that, again, is around another principle of transparency in your actions with your grantees.
00:11:04 Megan: And I think, Maria, you'll agree, Juliana is probably the most transparent person out there. All cards on the table. She's very open with what's going on with us, was very open at a stage in our journey at the Sprott Foundation when there was the potential of sun setting and closing out the foundation that maybe things have run its course. Thankfully for me, their decision to carry on was when I was hired by the foundation. So I'm very happy for that. I'm also happy for the philanthropic landscape and for charities in Canada that the Sprott Foundation is still around to support their good work.
00:11:41 Megan: So I think you're sensing a theme here where everything is kind of mutually reinforcing each other, all of these principles of trust-based philanthropy. And we're always going back and reviewing and refreshing and making sure we're on track. We follow the philanthropy project and read their blog and see what's the latest, because really they're about kind of shifting the power that historically there has been a power imbalance, there remains a power imbalance between donor and donee because we hold the purse strings at the end of the day.
00:12:20 Megan: And so we're trying to hand over those reins. I think we do a decent job at the Sprott Foundation in everything that I've mentioned. We really trust the organizations to know best what they need with the funds. And we look to organizations to outline what funding they need and how they'll utilize it, how it'll have an impact on the community and on those they serve.
00:12:44 Megan: But at the end of the day, we're just, we're constantly working to shift that power, to make sure that the voice of the grantees is elevated, amplified, that we're supporting it in things like signing the petition that you mentioned and all those myriad ways that you can assist an organization, when you're very knowledgeable of what they're doing because you have a close relationship.
00:13:13 Maria: I love when you're mentioning shifting power because that's something that traditionally funders have really want to keep their hands on. I decide what this program is going to be or you're going to do a social enterprise program for these food insecure people and teach them how to run their own business. I get that that might seem like a good idea if you're not here every day, you know, like you don't see it every day, but I always liked that. Yeah, so that the Sprott Foundation was never trying to direct our programming. That was super helpful.
00:13:43 Megan: Thank you. Yeah.
00:13:45 Maria: The other thing is, so the Sprout Foundation is huge and it's run by some of the wealthiest people in Canada. We also had another donor who was in the same kind of like wealth bracket. And in their granting guidelines, the expectation was like, oh, you have to send Christmas cards and gifts to the family.
00:14:04 Megan: Oh my goodness.
00:14:06 Maria: So it's like people that I've never met because it's just like, there's a granting officer, so they don't even want to have a relationship with the organization, really, that I'm sending Christmas gifts to during the busiest time of the year that I have no idea what they want. And also they're billionaires. So anything that I send them is going to be like, I don't know.
00:14:26 Megan: Yeah, I've never heard of such a situation. Wow.
00:14:31 Maria: Yes. And then the other thing that I really liked was there was never this, no, I don't want to meet with you, the director of development or you grand officer. Like I only want to meet with the ED. Like the ED is like the all powerful person. I always felt like this foundation like wanted to connect with as many people at the organization as possible, whether they were like programs or the ED, but it was never like, no, I want to talk to the most powerful hierarchical person available for me to build that connection.
00:15:04 Maria: I really love that about the partnership that we had at that organization. And like, that's why I was like super keen on like, please come on the podcast because you do things in a way that I think other foundations, other granting institutions could start to at least try to replicate. Because a lot of people are thinking about like power and wealth and all those things post the murder of George Floyd. But I don't know if they know actionable things that they could do.
00:15:32 Megan: I mean, I am in the unique position and the Sprott Foundation is in the unique position that it is a family organization. They lead with their heart and take a human approach. And we can because we're small. I am the only external employee. Juliana Sprott, as our chief giving officer, is an employee of the foundation. And I'm so lucky to work with her every day because you can corroborate, I'm sure she really does bring the passion. And she brings a very strong voice to the role.
00:16:09 Megan: But at the end of the day, the whole family really centers human dignity and equity, equality in what they do. The non-hierarchical, Juliana and I are colleagues. We don't report to each other. I don't report to her. We both report to the board. That's the approach they take. And so your example, we want to talk to the folks at an organization that want to talk to us, that have the time to talk to us. We don't want to disturb the workflow. We're very much there to support you, your processes.
00:16:46 Megan: So if you are saying as the grantee that this is the person you need to talk to, bring it on. They're obviously well positioned to inform us the way we need to be. And we really appreciate that. I really like knowing who is working under the ED. And it is kind of for us a bit of a diagnostic of how an organization is running because if we only ever talk to the ED and there's this gatekeeping happening, we wonder. And we don't find that that happens much. It has happened on occasion, but we like to see, we talked about shifting power.
00:17:27 Megan: Well, shifting power within the organization too, that the folks at every level on the org chart, and for those not watching the video, I'm air quoting, we wanna know everyone and what's going on. It's not a demand, it's not a stipulation, but to really understand an organization who is offered up to talk to us about the work that's being done is a piece of knowing and understanding an organization.
00:17:59 Maria: I think like true partnership, that's what it depends on being very comfortable, like coming in and being like, Hey, I'd love to volunteer and not, Oh, no, that's the Sprotts. Hide them. Bring them coffee. That's nice. Being a good host to someone who's come to the space, but ideally like it's just better to do it in partnership. So one time when you came in for a tour, we ate together the meal that was prepared for our service users just to like, this is what we do.
00:18:30 Maria: This is how to do it. And it's not even good enough. Like it's great. And we feel very comfortable serving it to our donors as well. Like it's not like a separate secret meal being prepared. So like I always really value that as well. But I wanted to ask, have you heard of crappy funding practices?
00:18:48 Megan: Crappy funding practices. I'm down with the name. I love it. Very descriptive. I'm imagining it has not crossed my radar, but I get it.
00:18:59 Maria: Yeah. Basically, it's this new LinkedIn page where they're calling out funders who are doing things in a very like, ugh, way. So I don't know, I think you would really enjoy it, but I'm just like scrolling through some of them and it's like a $15 application fees required by the foundation to apply for funding.
00:19:18 Megan: Oh my gosh.
00:19:18 Maria: I know.
00:19:19 Megan: But why? What are they going to do with $15? Oh my gosh.
00:19:24 Maria: I don't know. Oh my God. And then like some of it's like in order to continue to be eligible, a grantee must meet all the following criteria. And one of the criteria is having maintained a balanced budget over the past three years.
00:19:37 Megan: Oh boy.
00:19:38 Maria: So yeah, it's just like there's so many things around the power dynamics around these like barriers that sometimes funders, but also I wanted to say also nonprofits. Sometimes like the gate keepings coming from inside the house. They're like, no, they can only talk to the ED or to the board chair, the important people. Who are you?
00:19:56 Megan: Yep. There's old school people and approaches everywhere you go, every sector.
00:20:02 Maria: Yeah, which I think also is different with the Sprott Foundation because it's not about the money, if that makes sense. Like I know it is a granting organization, but it's really about community and partnership. So I found that really nice. But if there's any grantors who are listening to this podcast, what advice you would have for them to start implementing it? Like if they've never even heard of Trust-Based Philanthropy, I think they'd be a little bit further along. But what?
00:20:33 Megan: Yeah, I hope so. Well, like from the get go, I think educate yourself, know and understand the sector that you want to fund in and be funding from the heart. If you're a philanthropist, you should be looking to support something that you are passionate about. And as the Sprotts will say, they came from very meager means. Mrs. Sprott was born in a refugee camp in the dying days of World War II. It was a mess and they immigrated to Canada and had nothing and remembers being very, very hungry. Starving and living in literally an unheated home to begin with, and their coats' home. So they felt very strongly that having a decent meal and a place that was safe to lay your head was absolutely essential. It's a basic human need and for everyone's dignity should be a right. It is a right. And so they chose a mission that was so near and dear to them, and they live it every day.
00:21:50 Megan: And so I think for anyone getting into philanthropy or doing some soul searching about their philanthropy, making sure that you're so passionate about your mission, and then educating yourself about that field, knowing what your potential grantees, current grantees maybe are facing. Being very deeply involved in the sector and understanding it. And then in engaging with your grantees, potential grantees, being extremely respectful of their time and energy, their reality.
00:22:30 Megan: What are they facing and how are you interrupting their workflow to get what you need from them to make a grant decision? I think that's what we really prioritize for us is that we don't want to insert ourselves in a workflow that's going just fine. Stop and inform us or stop and do something for us. We never want to do that. And I think that no matter how big your organization is, again, I said we're small, so we can be very nimble.
00:23:05 Megan: We can go with the flow. Even a big organization, if you're centering your charities that you're hoping to help and being very cognizant because you've done the homework of what they're facing in their daily work lives, I think will have a much kind of smoother system and better support for organizations at the end of the day. When you being respectful of the organization up front, they remain more efficient in doing the work that you're looking to support.
00:23:40 Maria: I wonder if you have any advice for fundraisers. I feel like sometimes fundraisers are kind of scared to bring up these topics with their donors. They feel like, oh no, they definitely want to talk to the ED or oh, they really want this program. Like how do I even approach that conversation? So I wonder if you have any advice for people who are raising the funds internally.
00:24:02 Megan: Yeah, so I think knowing your target, understanding the organization that you're seeking funding from, making sure that you're mission aligned with them and truly mission aligned. I do get applications or inquiry letters saying, it could be like, we're raising funds to buy musical instruments for our class and you're helping people who don't have money, so you should help us too. Well, that's a bit of a struggle.
00:24:35 Megan: Don't try to put the square peg in the round hole. Take a look at what we do, what we fund, the other organizations that we fund. If you are an apple in the orange bag, move along. There will be a fit for you. And then reach out. Find the right person to reach out to and make an initial contact. Do not for us anyway.
00:25:04 Megan: Do not go to the work of putting together application, any deep case for support that you send just unsolicited. I think making that initial contact, verifying what the organization's process is, and getting to know the organization, the funder a little bit upfront makes a ton of sense and is more efficient for everybody.
00:25:28 Maria: I love that. Megan, are there any like final thoughts you would leave our audience with today?
00:25:32 Megan: We're all on this journey together. And we, as funders at the Sprott Foundation, we love funder collaboratives. We love the collaborative approach. And we do that formally by joining organizations that are funder collaborative driven. And we collaborate informally just with other like-minded foundations.
00:26:00 Megan: We... in a few cases have come together with other like-minded foundations kind of on the side where one of us finds out about a great project and brings the others in and we fund together. I think that just around that trust-based philanthropy principle of transparency and open dialogue and doing your homework, just being much more open to conversations, networking, collaboration.
00:26:29 Megan: Because at the end of the day, we all are just trying to do the best for folks who need a leg up, folks who might be struggling at this moment. It doesn't matter what your area of funding is. At the end of the day, we all are just trying to do good. And I like to think that every human is just trying to do their best and on any given day and just to approach philanthropy and the relationship between donor and grantee with a bit of grace on both sides and just really try to build the human connection.
00:27:07 Megan: Because I think the examples that you've used throughout, things fall down when we lose the human connection. When you're asking for hundreds of pages of an application, there's no human connection there. You're not valuing the person's time on one end. And I don't think you're valuing your own time if you really want to read through 100 page application. So just being humans being really awesome, good people to each other at the core, I think will get us a long way.
00:27:37 Maria: Thank you so much for coming on Megan. We don't get to hear from donors on podcasts or blogs or anything like that about why they're doing what they're doing and how they're doing it. So I just think this perspective, although fundraisers talk to donors all the time, I'll be asking these questions and also to like talk about it publicly when it's like such a big foundation, well known foundation, I think it's so helpful to know like what others are thinking, how they're approaching things, how things have shifted also for people internally who are like, I don't know, it just a little bit more confidence of like, things have changed. You can have these normal conversations, your donors were poor people.
00:28:18 Megan: Yeah.
00:28:19 Maria: Yeah. So just keeping the human element in it. It's such a lovely sentiment.
00:28:24 Megan: Yeah, thanks. And thanks so much for having me. You're doing wonderful work giving a stage to people to share their ideas. And around the let's just come together and work together, just sharing ideas the way you're doing and providing this platform is really wonderful. Thank you, Maria.
00:28:42 Maria: Thank you. Okay, so for people who want to get in touch with you and they're like, I want to connect about getting my foundation to be a little bit more moving along. How can they do that?
00:28:55 Megan: I am easily found on LinkedIn. I have a unique name, Megan Lorius. There aren't any others on LinkedIn. You will find me very easily.
00:29:05 Maria: That's lucky. There's so many Maria Rios like everywhere. Yeah. Okay, so people can connect with you for that purpose. Please do not message Megan for funds. Okay, guys, don't do it.
00:29:17 Megan: Yeah. I should say we are closed to unsolicited grants applications at this time, but I really don't mind a note of inquiry and I'm always happy to share ideas and bat things around.
00:29:31 Maria: I love that. Okay. Well, thank you so much, Megan, for joining us again. Thank you everyone for listening to this episode of The Small Nonprofit. I am really looking to bring in more donors into these conversations because sometimes it feels a little bit of a siloed echo chamber and we really want to include our whole community into changing the philanthropy landscape. So I'm hoping to have more conversations coming your way. But until then, bye for now.
00:30:02 Maria: Thank you for listening to another episode of The Small Nonprofit. If you want to continue the conversation, feel free to connect with our guests directly or find me on LinkedIn. Let's keep moving money to mission and prioritizing our well-being. Bye for now.
