Aligning Mission with Practice with Sheetal Puri
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Is your nonprofit aligned with your values or is it perpetuating harm? How does the culture within our organizations shape our effectiveness and well-being? In today's episode, we're diving into the realities many of us face in the nonprofit sector. From acknowledging ethical dilemmas in our work practices to recognizing our alignment (or misalignment) with organizational values, we discuss the complexities of working for a cause.
Sheetal Puri, our guest today, has dedicated her career to non-profit fundraising, marketing and communications for organizations globally. Having raised hundreds of millions for multiple organizations over the past 15 years, Sheetal’s commitment to the sector has given her the insight to identify areas in present day fundraising models that perpetuate colonial modes of power and prevent the ability to practice and implement our core values and missions. She is a strong advocate for community-centric approaches to fundraising that prioritize the return of power and agency to those who have experienced disempowerment.
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Key Episode Highlights:
Finding Your Value Alignment: There are immense benefits of working in a vision-aligned environment. It's about empathy, understanding, and the shared commitment to our mission – but what happens when there’s a disconnect?
Overcoming Power Dynamics: Power dynamics often muddy the waters of transparency and authentic connection within a team. Maria discusses how she has transitioned from withholding information to embracing openness when team members raise complaints or concerns.
The Courage to Speak Up: The importance of voicing our concerns within the sector cannot be understated; that might mean finding allyship, or even considering something as bold as unionizing. It’s crucial that we create an atmosphere where open conversation is not just allowed, but encouraged.
Leadership's Responsibility: Those in leadership roles carry the responsibility of aligning an organization's actions with its stated values. This includes implementing policies and fostering environments that empower trust and autonomy among employees.
Advocacy and Allyship: A significant segment of our discussion revolves around the roles of fundraisers, the privilege they hold, and the impact they can make in advocating for organizational changes—especially regarding racial equity and diversity issues.
Don’t forget to become a supporter of our show!
Watch this episode on Youtube: https://youtu.be/jL1LGc1pRkg?si=uRy5JExWlwRdT2Pn
Links and Resources:
Connect with Sheetal on LinkedIn: https://ca.linkedin.com/in/sheetalpersaud
Xlerate Day website: https://xlerateday.com/
Connect with Maria on LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mariario/
Support the show: https://www.buzzsprout.com/208666/supporters/new
Transcript:
00:00:00 Maria: Did you know that your manager has a bigger impact on your health and your doctor?
00:00:03 Sheetal: I can imagine it and like, the times where I'm not feeling good is like I have had a bad day at work and it's usually like a bad interaction and I work in a really, actually really great environment now. But I can see it. I can definitely see why that would be the case.
00:00:20 Maria: Hi friends, ever wondered how you could turn your big ideas into results? I'm Maria Rio, your go-to guide for helping small nonprofits have real world impacts. Together, let's reimagine a better sector, tackle systemic issues and yes, raise some serious cash. Welcome back to the small nonprofit, the podcast where your passion meets action.
00:00:52 Maria: Hi friends, welcome back to The Small Nonprofit podcast. I'm your host, Maria Rio, and today I have a really exciting guest for you here Sheetal, can you please introduce yourself to our audience, what you do and how you came to be here today?
00:01:10 S: Yeah, absolutely. Hi everyone. My name is Sheetal Puri. I use she/her pronouns and based in Toronto. What do I do for work? Currently, I work for the Wikimedia Foundation. I oversee their digital fundraising. So those little banners that you're going to see on Wikipedia starting real soon, that's the team that I work with. I've been at Wikimedia Foundation for about a year, but have worked in fundraising my whole career to date. And how I came to be here, I don't know. Maybe two years ago Cindy Wagman, I think, actually introduced us. She said you too should meet, and then we did, and now we're in touch, and then this is happening. So I'm grateful to be here with you, and congrats on taking over this podcast hosting.
00:01:50 M: Thank you. Yes, I forgot that. We actually met through Cindy. Yes, yes, yes, at one of her picnics or something. Can you tell us a little bit about your career? So you've been in fundraising this whole time. What have you been working on?
00:02:04 Sheetal: Yeah, absolutely. I started in fundraising when I was an undergraduate student. I needed money, as every undergraduate student did, so I was doing a [poli-sci] program. I really wanted to work in international development, that's where my heart was. But to make money in university, I was an alumni caller, so I would call folks and ask for gifts and I just found it really fun. I thought it was a really cool job. It probably helped that most of the alumni were really nice and it was kind of easy to be good at that job because most of them were really well employed. So that kind of got me hooked on fundraising a little bit.
00:02:37 S: I've worked... I started in kind of consulting work, so I worked in an agency for a long time. I worked at university. I worked at a large national development organization for a long time and that has brought me here. All of that has been really focused on digital for the most part digital fundraising. All small gifts, never worked in major gifts, never asked anyone for a big chunk of money before. So the only time I ever really directly asked for money was that first calling job. But it was fun and it has set me on a path for life.
00:03:07 Maria: That's so interesting that you started with a student volunteer position. I feel like a lot of people who choose to become fundraisers and not just fall into it actually start in a similar manner like do a volunteer position.
00:03:20 Sheetal: Yeah, and it was. I did that. And then when I went to university in the UK and I moved to Canada and actually started working at public outreach and I was on the street for one day before I got my consulting job. It was a fulltime job but I was game for all that kind of work. And it's a good way to cut your teeth. It's a really good way to get started in the industry.
00:03:40 Maria: Oh, my God, so funny. Everyone I know started at public outreach. You only did a day.
00:03:46 S: Yeah, nice.
00:03:47 M: Yeah. So some of the things that I love talking about with you have to do with workplace culture, leadership, what to do when our values misalign from the stated values of our organization. So, for you, when did you start having thoughts around that and why?
00:04:06 Sheetal: On the values piece. I think it was my I had this niggling thought. I was working at a university. I was actually a student at the university. I was doing my masters at the same time as well, so I was doing fundraising for this university. I was studying there as well, and it just felt like a very strange position to be in because I could see how much money was going into fundraising. I could see how many dollars we were raising and then I was kind of in some ways a recipient of that.
00:04:30 S: My degree was done in this brand new building. It was beautiful. We got like catered breakfast and lunches and I was like, "Is this what the philanthropy is for? Are we giving donors tax credits for this kind of thing?" And that's not to say that's the only thing the universities are raising money for. Of course there's bursaries and scholarships and all of that, but at least some portion of the money is going to beautiful buildings and making sure people like me, who I'm very privileged I have a very privileged life and people like me having a somewhat better life, it just never sat that well.
00:05:03 S: As I was in that job in the university, I started to feel like what am I doing this for, what is the actual purpose behind this philanthropic work that we do and are we really achieving the stated goals and stated purposes that many of us have when we get into this profession of fundraising? And I didn't really feel it in university. I kind of had to leave that job pretty soon after I started. It was not really something that was motivating for me.
00:05:27 S: And then I started working in internet development, which was so much closer aligned to where my interests were. And it was funny because I still was not feeling like that I had found that thing that was values aligned. So the organization was doing amazing things. There was like no doubt people who were in incredible need were receiving often lifesaving aid from the money that we were raising as fundraisers.
00:05:51 S: I think in that job it was more I was coming to terms with the methodology we were using for fundraising and the tools that we had in our tool case just felt really conflicting with what we were trying to do as an organization. So oftentimes I've seen, in international development particular, the stories that we tell are kind of dehumanizing. They take away agency from the folks that we're supposed to be raising money for.
00:06:18 S: They paint a picture of people receiving and not actually doing all the work that gets them to a place of safety themselves. And that was where the refugee population, where political policy towards refugees, has changed in many places for the worst in a very scary way in the last few years.
00:06:38 S: And I kind of just had this question as to what role the communications my organization was putting out was playing in that. There was a point in that job where I think our fundraising team was spending amongst the highest amount of money in Canada on advertising on Facebook. You could see ranks of all the ads. It was like a new policy Facebook released and we could see our organization's ads way up there. So we were getting a lot of impressions for our messages out there.
00:07:07 S: And it was funny because I don't think the messages were very good. In my early days in that organization, we were really using images that I don't think we should have been using, words that we shouldn't have been using, and over the course of working in that organization I was able to do a lot to move some change in terms of the way we told stories.
00:07:28 S: But it's endemic. It's endemic in the way we do fundraising for certain types of organizations and it's kind of, I think, felt as received wisdom that you're going to raise more money if you let donors feel like saviors. You let donors feel like they are coming in and making this really humane, beautiful move to save the lives of these people. And we even use that language right, we use a really icky language. And I think when you start unpacking that received wisdom, you really understand there's nothing, there's no substance there. You can make logical sense.
00:08:06 Maria: So so close to everybody's heart. I think, right? Like it's something that we've all gone through, even if it's not the communications or the fundraising methods, it can be something internally. So when you were talking, I was thinking of this organization that I worked at, that did a lot of really amazing work. They were suing the government and making sure that policy changes were being made. But internally, my ED is like. "Why are you using the word BIPOC? What is that? Stop using acronyms. You had no idea, no clue."
00:08:40 Maria: And one of our stated values is equity, diversity, blah, blah, blah. So to know that there was such a little understanding was eating me up alive because this doesn't align with my values and it doesn't align with how I think nonprofits can and should be run, and I know traditionally it's been always done this way. You know that famous line. But, yeah, what do you think nonprofit fundraisers can or maybe should do when it comes to, you know that value misalignment? Is there anything for them to do?
00:09:12 Sheetal: I think there's a lot that can be done and you know, a lot of people talk about burnout in our sector and I think when many people refer to burnout, they're talking about like, "Oh, I work so hard and I have so many hours of work and I can't get all my stuff done," and that is like a very legitimate form of burnout that happens in the work that we do. And I think another form of burnout that we really need to start unpacking and thinking about is burnout that happens when we have these values.
00:09:42 Sheetal: We come into an organization because we want to work on a certain mission and you kind of see that the organization you're working for doesn't quite live up to them, and exactly the type of example you just mentioned. And it's tiring, it's really exhausting, right? I'm speaking to you in November of 2023. And with everything that's happening in Gaza, I know so many of my colleagues who are painfully going to work every day, knowing they can't talk about this big issue, they cannot talk about how they're feeling about it, they're scared.
00:10:15 Sheetal: They're being advised on how to talk to donors and to do that in a really like sensitive way, even when a donor might be advocating for a genocide effectively. So that's a burnout to me. That is me waking up every morning being like it's really hard to work in this capitalist world, and I think that's what I struggle with. We work in these nonprofits. The nonprofits are meant to be the things that are fighting against the problems in the system.
00:10:39 Sheetal: They're so part of the system and they're so subject to all the problems that the system creates. I don't want to make out like I'm a super burned out person, because I think I actually have loads of energy for work. Maria might be a burned out person, but, Maria, you're showing up here and you're doing this beautiful thing and I think the thing that gives me energy is just finding those projects where I know I'm pushing the dial, I'm doing something that is leading to maybe people thinking about things differently or people approaching work slightly differently, and that gives me a lot of energy.
00:11:12 Sheetal: So getting out and speaking, I worked recently on a conference with some colleagues called Accelerate Day. It's an amazing experience where many amazing things happened, but the most amazing thing was we bought a bunch of BIPOC fundraisers together and queer fundraisers and folks who just don't usually get together in a space, and gave them a safe space to say whatever they wanted, and I am energized from that.That is like sitting up against my burnout.
00:11:38 S: The other thing I think that really helps me is often my colleagues are in the same boat as me, like we're all feeling the same thing, and I love showing up to work and just doing my best for my colleagues. Often that's in a management role, it's doing my best for my team and seeing individuals thrive, or my peers, and I think that's really really rewarding work. And if the least you can do is just show up and be an amazing colleague. I think you can accomplish a lot of work, because that's not always the case, I think, for folks.
00:12:11 Maria: I always say to teams that I manage, or just like my colleagues or clients, it is my job to make your job easier. We spend so much time at work, so to have it be somewhere where you're unhappy to be or stressed to go to because it doesn't align with your values, and not only do you know that, but you also have to raise money for this thing that doesn't align with your values or that you know is misusing funds, or you know they just had this like ED commit fraud or whatever the case is, and these aren't even like rare scenarios, which is really messed up.
00:12:47 Maria: But yeah, I was really happy to be in that room, the auxiliary room that you were just mentioning, just feeling that sense of community and that sense of oh, a lot of people are feeling completely burnt out. But also the solutions with the nonprofit sector. Like we come into it saying like, "Yeah, I want to make a change."
00:13:10 Maria: And you know I was actually thinking about my why today, because one of my colleagues asked after listening to the first episode with Cindy, and my why when I started fundraising was like I want to make a big difference. You know like I've used a lot of charitable services myself and it's not always a very dignified process as a service user and I want to make sure that it's as dignified as possible and that we're trying to solve problems in a systemic manner instead of a piecemeal, you know, full of egos kind of space.
00:13:42 Maria: And now, thinking about my why it's like I want to shake up the nonprofit sector, we can't just like... it's unwell, like our people are unwell, like we're just too comfortable with the status quo being burnout and being value misalignment and being horrible workplace cultures. It makes me sad.
00:14:04 Sheetal: It makes me sad and it was so funny because I reflect on... Your listeners can't see me. I'm a brown woman, I'm of Indian heritage, I'm a mom of three and that's a huge part of my identity. So, like very inherently, I'm a caregiver and I have always been trained to be a caregiver. I think that's like the model my mom presented in life of what I was supposed to do.
00:14:29 Sheetal: And I'm having this beautiful moment of how do I reframe that? Cause I can do it like, "I'm going to care for my kids and I'm going to care beyond that." But what is this community of nonprofit folks and what does caregiving look like in that? Because I think we can accomplish a lot as, like this group of really unhappy people being really vocal and loud about the ways in which the sector is not working. And it's not even about us.
00:14:57 Sheetal: I am a professional middle management, I come from my bedroom to my computer every day and sit in my comfortable home and work. My job is not particularly difficult. But for the people who are out there doing personal care work or doing, caring for my children at their school, like there's so many nonprofit jobs which are so much harder.
00:15:16 Sheetal: We sit with a lot of privilege as fundraisers and I think we need to recognize how powerful that is to be able to, in the middle of my work day, take a break to do a podcast. I couldn't do that if I was. I don't know a daycare teacher or something like that. So I really want to use that kind of caregiving energy, that community building energy, to do something that's helping to work towards something better. I don't know, maybe it will be helpful. I'd rather be tired from doing this work than stupidly ignorant and crying and just accepting things as they are, even if it comes with like late nights and we can't work and all of that.
00:15:56 Maria: Yeah, I like how you said we have a lot of privilege, because that's something that not a lot of fundraisers recognize. We have a lot of privilege and with that comes a lot of power. As we know, privilege how it works, right? So with all that power, what are we doing with it to actually affect change in how we fundraise, how our organizations are managed, how we're doing recruitment, all that stuff which might seem a little bit out of our purview, but it is something that makes our organization better, which makes the sector better, and if someone with power is not willing to kind of take a look at some of the other things happening in the organization, then who's going to right? And I think a lot of our power comes from holding the purse strings.
00:16:41 Sheetal: Yeah. So it's such a big responsibility and it's funny... practically everywhere I've worked, fundraisers have been left alone to their own devices to do whatever mysterious things they do to make the money. And the same policies don't apply to them and the same restrictions don't apply to them and God forbid, you clamp down with some brand standards that would like rein their messaging in a way that was mission aligned, this just doesn't happen. Fundraisers are left alone.
00:17:14 Sheetal: It's really weird. It's really really weird. Can you think about how public facing our messaging is and how powerful it is? But I think it's because a lot of EDs are scared, a lot of boards are scared that the whole thing is going to crumble if the fundraisers walk away. So I think the responsibility is with us to be self-reflective and say what do we want to do with this privilege that we have? Do we want to be powerhordy and continue to live on this island and just grow professionally and get one promotion, become a manager and then director and then up and up?
00:17:44 Sheetal: Is that what you're trying to do with your career or are you actually trying to effect change? Because if you are trying to effect change, you as a fundraiser, should be getting way involved with all the other aspects of your organization. You should be getting involved with HR policy, you should be getting involved with board governance and all of that.
00:17:59 Sheetal: You probably have lots of experience and lots of training in the sector to be able to do that kind of work. So I think you were right, Maria, it's this weird dynamic and I've never liked it and I really wish that, and I think it's on fundraisers themselves to just come out and do the work better, do the work in a way that is more mission aligned and always put your ego down here and the mission up here.
00:18:26 Sheetal: I think that's what, for me, when I observe the problems, it's when there's a ton of ego in the room, and fundraisers, unfortunately, are people that tend to walk around with these big, big egos for the work that they do and it doesn't serve anyone. Honestly, what is the point of that mentality?
00:18:42 Maria: Oh man, you just said so many good things I don't even know what to respond to. I'm like, "Yes, exactly that." I think my thinking is also like so fundraisers. Well, we have power and we can't get involved with all these spots Because we also have another level of job security that other people in our organization do not.
00:19:02 Maria: So, for example, finance manager pushing back to the board might feel like they can't do that because they are seen as more replaceable than a fundraiser. Same thing with program stuff like saying, "Hey, our washrooms are inaccessible," or why do we call this an officer position? That's a little bit sus and they might not feel like they can't see those things without being walked out the door or being seen as more replaceable than us.
00:19:32 Maria: So, yeah, so we have power fundraisers should be getting involved. And also fundraisers especially if you're a white fundraiser you should be able to take those risks. You should be able to push forward for things that you say you believe in. Kind of no matter the cost, but I've only really seen like, maybe like two fundraisers who are white women really stand up for people internally at an organization, even if it could mean like, "Oh, the CEO's unhappy with me or the board chair," right? It's usually a lot of program staff who are taking that risk, unfortunately. And then also, yeah, like racialized people.
00:20:09 Sheetal: I've seen it everywhere I've worked. It's often like the racialized people. It's often, frankly, Black women who are coming up and coming forward and I've seen it countless times in every organization like those are the most vocal colleagues I have on equity issues. And it's really embarrassing that no one else is coming forward with the same kind of level of energy and advocacy, because we all say we believe in the same things.
00:20:34 Sheetal: But when push comes to shove, and big issues come up and I'm thinking right now we're in a big issue where very few people are advocating for saying the right things and being very vocal about literal genocide happening. But the folks I am seeing standing up are racialized queer women or just women or just people who are in some way hyper marginalized because there's just this tenacity there. But everyone else needs to just get their ego out the door and be a little brave. Be a little bit brave with your privilege.
00:21:08 Maria: Something that I have heard and maybe you can touch on this is like so for white colleagues that I've had who have been incredible allies, they don't feel like it's their place to be the spokesperson. They're like, "Well, like this is an issue that impacts Black people. Why would I, as a white person, like a champion, that I'm not a voice for the voiceless," right? So there is that also. I don't know, I don't want to say fine line that a good ally tries to take. I don't want to be the voice for the voiceless. I want to echo people, but if there's no one in a leadership position who's racialized, there's no one to echo.
00:21:46 Sheetal: Yeah, and I think there is a fear that's genuine, but I think it's a lot of getting out of your own head with some of that. And if you're truly listening to people who are being impacted by whatever the issue might be, let's say it's pay transparency and you're not out here every day advocating for pay transparency in your organization. What is it that you're fearing? Honestly, I think there's this need to question some of that.
00:22:18 Sheetal: If you're a man, for example, you have nothing to lose from pay transparency other than everyone just sitting on a level playing field. And that might mean you personally lose a little bit, but our whole world gets better when we are advocating for an issue like that. But yeah, I hear that fear all the time. I don't think I need to be. I don't think I can be the spokesperson.
00:22:39 Sheetal: I'm not the right person to lead this, but even just raising your hand and saying a thing is incredibly powerful when you are in a majority group and probably everyone's going to listen to you more than they're going to listen to me or people like me.
00:22:53 Maria: And it also makes it safer for us to then say something. But yeah, it's the listening part. I think that's a really big difference. I have a colleague that I used to work with, Mary France, who I've also invited to come to the podcast, and it's like why do you think you know X was happening in this situation?
00:23:12 Maria: Like the stoner had this feedback about this other colleague that we have who is really visibly racialized versus yourself, even though you're having the same kind of interaction with the stoner, and it always comes to the privilege that you carry and how do you navigate that while trying to do good, while also not trying to step on any kind of way saviorism path?
00:23:36 Sheetal: Yeah, yeah, definitely.
23:39 Maria: So we talked a little bit about the problems. I know you and I could go on forever. Yeah, there's a lot of issues when it comes to feelings of belonging and you know, management styles and recruitment styles and all those things and how they don't align with our values, right? Maybe you think there's some way that you know if someone comes into an organization and they're looking to make change, how can they kind of move that in a positive direction?
00:24:06 Sheetal: I think finding some friends who are somewhat interested in the things that you're interested in and would be able to create that social effect which is literally like if I say something, are you going to emoji "yes" on the team chat, or are you going to support me in some way. And finding that sense of community is really, really important and it takes a while.
00:24:28 Sheetal: It really takes a while and that's highly conflicts with the fact that most people don't stay in their nonprofit fundraising jobs for very long. But let's say you're in space and you found some folks who are like minded and supportive. I think just being brave and feeling like you have wisdom, every single person has some wisdom to share and that there's space for your voice. And it doesn't matter if you're just coming in your first coordinator level job or you're in a VP level role. Everyone has something to contribute.
00:25:07 Sheetal: If you're in an environment where you get shut down every time you try to contribute something, leave, just get out of that environment. That is not a good environment and it's very hard to recruit in the fundraising sector right now, so you'll probably find another job. So just leave environments like that.
00:25:21 Sheetal: And if you're in an environment where you think you can be heard and you can make your voice known and your opinion's known, then just use opportunities to do that. Use those like staff surveys, use staff meetings, use one-on-one time with your manager to talk about the issues, because when you start unpacking problems, it's very hard to put those problems back into a box.
00:25:44 Sheetal: If you're like, "Hey, we have an ad and on that ad we have a really problematic picture and I don't know even know if this person has given consent for us to use their picture in this way." You've said that it can never be unset and you've put that thought out there and now somebody probably not you, but someone above you has to address it.
00:26:03 Sheetal: So I think it can just be a matter of like feeling that courage and trying it a few times and seeing what happens and then knowing that if you try that and it doesn't work, it might just be time for you to move on and this might not be an organization that you should stay at that's healthy.
00:26:24 Maria: What do you think about so that to me sounds more like the perspective of someone who doesn't feel like they have a lot of inherent power? What about a board chair or the ED? How can they start living their values in a way that is authentic?
00:26:37 Sheetal: Oh, my God, just do it. You have so much power at that point. There's so many things you could do, so many policy things you could do. When I was working at an international development organization, I remember at one point being like, do we have brand guidelines that tell us how to make decisions as to what words we should and shouldn't use in reference to refugees? And there just wasn't one at that time. It just didn't exist.
00:27:03 Sheetal: And I didn't even have a powerful position. I'm so middle managed, Maria, I don't have that much power in any job I've had. But just saying that someone was like, "Well, maybe like your organization, like greater committee, and you can do something like that." And so that's what eventually happened at that organization. And it's just like we all know, big things get done at work because, like one person just said they're going to do it and they did it. It's not usually that complicated.
00:27:33 Sheetal: So I think if you're in a board position or even like a more powerful position, you have so much trickle down power and you should just be able to be like here are the issues, and I'm going to table this and let you can set the literal agenda for what the organization is doing. So putting things on the agenda are really effective and then holding people accountable.
00:27:53 Sheetal: Like holding people accountable for the actions that they're taking, the words that they're saying, giving people feedback. I think I'm known with people that I manage for giving very direct feedback, but hopefully in a kind way. That's constructive. And I often call people out on wacky things they've said from a DEI perspective. I'm like "You know, when you said that? It didn't. You can't say stuff like that." And then we talk about it when it's a learning moment.
00:28:20 Sheetal: I know oftentimes people are trying their best and we're all learning, but if you're in a management role, you can have so much sway on the folks that you're managing and bring up a generation of leaders who are just doing the work better.
00:28:35 Maria: And, I think, aligned with your values of like. We treat people well. We believe in psychological safety and not burning people out or making them feel like they can't take a sick day or a vacation day without being questioned.
00:28:48 Sheetal: Yeah, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. I think these are very basic things in management which are actually so wildly scarce, which I can't understand. But if you want to come in and you're in a management role of any type within a nonprofit, setting the parameters for what a good workspace looks like is with a lot of time within your remit. And don't tell me your HR policy is that everyone can only take one sick day.
00:29:17 Sheetal: Because if you're a manager, just let people take sick days, just like call. You don't need to like police people's actions in that way. And I think it's this idea like we're in a capitalist system. We work in nonprofits, probably because we want to tackle that system. So don't be the man. Don't come in here and be the manager and be the man. Don't stand up for those inherently weird values. Just do better. Do you just just be a good person and you will raise a better generation of people that will come next, who will then do better work.
00:29:46 Maria: Did you know that your manager has a bigger impact on your health than your doctor?
00:29:50 Sheetal: I can. I can imagine it, man. The times where I'm not feeling good, it's like I have had a bad day at work and it's usually a bad interaction and I work in a really... actually really great environment now. But I can see it. I can definitely see why that would be the case. That's really sad.
00:30:07 Maria: I know. It's like the stress and heart problems and waking and all these things tied to having a bad manager that it's scary to think about because they're so prevailing in the nonprofit sector. Of course, there's some really great EDs, but those EDs really make themselves known.
00:30:27 Maria: I was just talking to one recently and how they determine the values of the organization is by sitting all together and saying like what do we believe in as a group? And then having that always to look at when you're coming up with your gift acceptance policy or who's gonna be your new board member, or how do we want to approach this new project or program. So I find that really interesting because it's a very collaborative effort, which you know we do a lot of top down lip service kind of things in nonprofit, but that one I really enjoyed.
00:30:57 Sheetal: I actually went through a process like that where it was like a newly formed team. It was growing really quickly and we sat down together and wrote down our values and what we were trying to accomplish and I have to tell you like that was the most effective team I've ever worked with. There was this beautiful magic for like three or four years. That team together is because we literally wrote our future out together in a really collaborative way. So kudos to my manager who instigated that. But I fully agree with that approach to how we get things done together as we treat people like adults.
00:31:28 Sheetal: Here, they're full, everyone's like full opinions. Make a safe space. Give people autonomy, give people good vision and direction. They'll just go and do it like I don't need to be in the weeds. I don't want to be in the weeds. I want to stop working at five o'clock and hang out with my kids.
00:31:42 Maria: Absolutely. This team that I recently managed like it's like, "I don't need to know when you're going to get your teeth cleaned." I really could not carry less. I'm not gonna change your salary because you were gone for half an hour, I think that's so weird. I've tried to have that level of control over someone's livelihood and movements and blah, blah, blah, when they're actually doing their job exceptionally well.
I trust you, you trust me. I don't need to tell you when I'm getting my teeth cleaned, so why would I expect you to have this kind of infantilized relationship?
00:32:21 Sheetal: 100%. I literally once told someone to stop telling me when they're 30 minutes late. I think I don't care. You're clogging up space on my phone. Just be late, just or just be... All right. But whatever time you want to arrive at, that's gonna make you the best at work. And if that's like you're rolling out a bed at 11 o'clock and showing up at 12 and you're not missing important meetings, I don't care. I don't care, just as long as you're doing your work. I don't care.
00:32:45 Maria: Yeah, but taking that approach with my team ended up being like the most successful that they've ever fundraised. It went from a three million dollar organization to like 4.5. It's just like trust people. They know what they're doing, they've been doing it for 10 years. And also gives you, as a manager, the opportunity to learn.
00:33:03 Sheetal: Yeah. You'll learn from them. You'll learn from that creativity. You'll have space to do your own work and to do the things that you're meant to be doing. There's so many benefits from this, like a set of vision with them and then give space for it to just be realized.
00:33:18 Maria: Yes, and everyone can kind of feel values aligned and less looking at the door.
00:33:24 Sheetal: Yeah, and then I think that those moments like, let's say, you have a team member who comes and was like, "I noticed this happened at a board meeting and it makes me feel icky and I don't like that that happened." Just listen like a human being, like you. Don't again. You don't have to be like, "I don't know. Well, this is just how boards work and this is just how it is. This is just how the sector is."
00:33:47 Sheetal: This is gross. This is actual gross management when you try to reinforce harmful patterns because you think your job as a manager is to be aligned to the organization's practice. Just if somebody, something icky is happening and somebody brings it to you, just empathize with that and hear it and then raise it, raise it up. I'm like, "My team is telling me they saw this and it's really really bad that at this level, we're seeing, at that level, harmful practice happening." That's your job as a manager. Empathize and then take it, take it back. So, again, don't be the man.
00:34:21 Maria: So funny that you said that, because I feel like I've been both kinds of managers when that's like, "Oh, I had to hide everything from my team so they don't run away," please say I need you. But later on in my career I was like, "Oh, this is like taking away their consent to make that decision." Like, “O, we have a X amount of deficit and it could impact a lot of jobs.” No, I'm not gonna tell you, even though it will impact your livelihood.
00:34:49 Sheetal: Yeah, yeah, you know you're a fundraiser and you should like, "We need to think about a better strategy."
00:34:54 Maria: I know, even though you're a fundraiser and we need you to know. It's like. "No, I'm not gonna tell you," but now, as a manager, is when people come to me and have complaints about a board member or whatever. It's like, "Yeah, I believe you. That's not okay and I agree with you." Not like, "Oh, I'll figure it out. Yeah, it's probably just some misunderstanding." No, I believe you.:
00:35:17 Sheetal: Yeah and I think transparency is one of those things where you observe yourself not being transparent about something. It's because you're hiding something, there's no other explanation for this. Are you hiding something and you're trying to be a spin doctor? And that is none of our professions, right? So I just love being open with people and talking about the real stuff of what's going on, and I think it just actually creates more authentic connection with the work.
00:35:48 Sheetal: And the highly complicated nature of the organizations that we work with, and I don't mean complicated, let's just not delve into the fact that it shouldn't be like this, but people are able to handle nuance. And when again your word and when we infantilize people, they get burnt out, they get bored, they get frustrated and then they leave.
00:36:09 Maria: I know a lot of our listeners will immediately relate to this conversation, but it almost feels like an open secret. You know, it feels a little taboo to be talking about it for some reason and I don't know why. I don't know why people feel like they can't really speak about, hey, that board chair is hugging volunteers, like that's not okay, right? They just keep bowing down to this power structure and you can leave. As a fundraiser, you can always leave, which they do. But then it's always chalked up to oh, oh COVID, or recession, or it's the great resignation.
00:36:46 Sheetal: Yeah. And I think if we know, I definitely am not an advocate for sticking around in problematic environments, but I think if the response can actually be calling out and then seeing what happens and like actually trying to to get to better culture. I've actually seen that work. I've seen organizations get better because the staff become more vocal. I wish we could all unionize.
00:37:11 Sheetal: I think we spoke about this at Accelerator, Maria. I think we would just have so much of a better sector if I mean not just fundraisers but like across the board. We were able to get that collective voice in place. But in lieu of that being you know our immediate tomorrow, I think just being vocal and finding alley ships and finding people who will come support you and being brave enough to do that, is really important.
00:37:41 Maria: We're excited to talk about union. Anyone out there, if you know how to unionize a sector of fundraisers, you know, I'd love to hear it, I'd love to bring you on. But yeah, thank you so much for coming on. This is like always, you know, it's always great chatting with you about all these topics and really... It gives me a little bit of space to reimagine what this could be and to think more clearly about it. So thank you for your time.
00:38:08 Sheetal: Thank you, it's always inspiring speaking with you too, Maria.
00:38:12 Maria: No. Is there any way that our listeners can get in contact with you or get more information?
00:38:18 Sheetal: Yeah, probably best on LinkedIn. It's just my name on LinkedIn. I'm not super active on social media, but I kind of have a little goal to be more active on social media as part of using my voice, so feel free to hold me accountable to that. I would love to do more, more. I admire folks like yourself, Maria, who are very vocal about your opinions, and I think it makes a difference.
00:38:38 Maria: I think so too. It at least gives people permission to voice their opinions, even if it's different from mine. At least like we're talking and you can't fix what you don't acknowledge, right?
00:38:47 Sheetal: Exactly, 100%.
00:38:51 Maria: Well, thank you so much for coming today and thank everyone for tuning in. We're gonna have the show notes, as always in the description, and also video recording. So if you want to see the video of our conversations, every episode is now gonna have a video so you can go to youtube.com/@furthertogether and, until then, bye for now.
00:39:13 Sheetal: Thank you.
00:39:18 Maria: Thank you for listening to another episode of the Small NonProfit. If you want to continue the conversation, feel free to connect with our guests directly or find me on LinkedIn. Let's keep moving money to mission and prioritizing our wellbeing. Bye for now.
