Before the CRISIS.… How to Be a Proactive Ally with Jade Pichette

Subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify

Does your nonprofit talk a good game about diversity and inclusion, but the action never seems to follow? Maybe you've been part of mandatory trainings that left you asking, "Okay, but now what……?"

I'm excited to have Jade Pichette from Pride at Work Canada on today's episode of The Small Nonprofit! Jade is breaking down why that "emergency response" mindset around issues like racism and homophobia just doesn't cut it – and spoiler alert, it might actually be doing more harm than good.  But don't worry! Jade's got the insider scoop on how nonprofits can proactively build more inclusive, equitable workplaces where everyone can thrive.

Don’t forget to become a supporter of our show!

Key Episode Highlights: 

• Don't be that company: The one scrambling to seem like a good ally after an incident. True inclusion is built into everything you do.

• Culture first: Jade busted the myth that training = instant change. Real inclusivity is a culture shift, woven into recruitment, policies, and how you work.

• Compassionate accountability: Give people space to learn, BUT hold them accountable when they're causing harm.

• It's a team effort: Form an inclusion council. Don't dump this all on one person - share the work, get the buy-in.

• Don't go it alone: Learn from other orgs, get help when you need it. Small nonprofits can be powerful forces for inclusivity!

Don’t forget to become a supporter of our show!
Watch this episode on Youtube: https://youtu.be/Byz5mGyk0LY

Links and Resources:  

• Connect with Jade Pichette on Linkedin: linkedin.com/in/jadepichette and Website: jadepichette.com

• Learn more about Pride at Work Canada: https://prideatwork.ca/ 

• Connect with Maria on LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mariario/

• Support the show: https://www.buzzsprout.com/208666/supporters/new
  

Transcript:

00:00:00 Jade: I think of the example of pronoun usage. If somebody, English is not their first language and they're messing up on pronouns, that's probably maybe a language issue as well as something, as you know, potentially there's transphobia there, but potentially it may be a language piece because not every language has gendered pronouns like we have in English. And so, you know, we have to be aware of their cultural context as well, and their linguistic context of how they're coming into the situation.

00:00:41 Maria: Hi, friends. Ever wondered how you could turn your big ideas into results? I'm Maria Rio, your go-to guide for helping small nonprofits have real world impacts. Together, let's reimagine a better sector, tackle systemic issues, and yes, raise some serious cash. Welcome back to The Small Nonprofit, the podcast where your passion meets action.

00:01:12 Maria: Welcome back to The Small Nonprofit Podcast. I am here with Jade today, so excited to bring them on to talk about all the really cool work they've been doing over the past few years. Hi, Jade.

00:01:25 Jade: Hi, Maria. It's such a pleasure to be with you.

00:01:27 Maria: Jade, I love, if you could introduce yourself to our audience, tell them a little bit about what you do, why you do it, where you do it, all those good things.

00:01:35 Jade: So I'm Jade Pichette. I use the pronouns they and them, and I'm the director of programs at Pride at Work Canada, which is a member services nonprofit where our head offices are based in Toronto, but we have staff that are in multiple parts of the country. And so within my role, I oversee all of our programming that is primarily with large organizations around 2SLGBTQI+ inclusion.

00:02:06 Jade: So in particular, we're looking to create a Canada where all employees are able to see themselves at work, regardless of gender expression, gender identity, and sexual orientation. And so within that, we work with over 250 different employers. And often people think that we're some big team, big consultancy, but really, we're a small team. When I started here five years ago, we were a team of four, and now we're a team of 16. So we feel like we're huge because we've grown so much in a short amount of time, but we're still a small organization at the end of the day.

00:02:51 Jade: And so within my work, I'm always looking at how we can bring diversity, equity, and inclusion into the workplace. I always love to share that as well with folks and looking forward to sharing that today. But in my history, I've always kind of worked in small nonprofits. This is my third small nonprofit I've worked for. So it's been quite a small nonprofit journey over that time.

00:03:21 Maria: I love that you're saying it's a small organization, 16 people, but that's a huge reach. That's something that–

00:03:27 Jade: Yes.

00:03:28 Maria: Pride at Work Canada should be very proud of for sure. I just have a question. So do you mostly only serve nonprofits? Do you serve corporate or do you serve anyone who's kind of looking to make that commitment?

00:03:41 Jade: We look to serve anybody who's serving that, looking for that commitment, but primarily we work with corporations more than anybody. And so within that, we have folks from all kinds of different sectors, from legal to financial to insurance to skilled trades and more tech sector as well. But we also have governments that we work with, we have nonprofits that we work with, and so we have a range of different organizations that we work with in a professional manner. But we also have our community partnership program where we work with nonprofits that have a similar mandate to us and provide them free access to some of our services. So we're always trying to look to grow that network and have a united network across all industries.

00:04:41 Maria: And what does the programming actually look like? So when someone engages with Pride at Work Canada, what's the next step?

00:04:47 Jade: Yeah, so we have quite a few different programs. So we have our education programs, like our webinars, that serve and look at, kind of, the 201 issues of 2SLGBTQI+ inclusion, as well as we do occasional roundtables across the country. We try to do some of those types of workshops and presentations on the ground. But then we also are looking for ways to support individuals and their journey.

00:05:24 Jade: And so we have leadership programs that we run, one of which is called Thrive, which is actually just about to start or probably has started by the time this comes out, that happens in the spring. And that's for two-spirit queer and trans leaders, specifically those who are in a management track. And then we have a program in the fall called Flourish that looks at employee resource group leaders. And so employee resource groups or affinity groups are groups of employees that come together around a single purpose. And so there's a lot of pride and play resource groups out there.

00:06:06 Jade: And so we want to make sure that they're doing the best job that they can and have all the supports that they can. And then we also run an in-person program that's a one day symposium called Spark. And that happens every April in Toronto or April 2024 anyway. And then we're looking at touring it in other parts of the country later in the year and in future years. And that program looks at how can we actively get senior leaders and people who are directly in positions like HR to actually be inclusive of our communities.

00:06:51 Jade: And this year, we're focusing on trans and non-binary communities in particular, but we have future plans to look at 2SLGBTQI+ newcomers and other marginalized members and equity-deserving members of our community. And so we look to do that. We also do research. We're also putting out research reports when we can. So that includes our Lead with Pride research that came out last year in 2023. And that looks at the barriers to leadership for 2SLGBTQI+ employees. And so where does their employee journey actually go? And that's the latest research that we've come out with, but we've done other research as well, as well as networking events.

00:07:46 Jade: So we also do networking events in a few different parts of the country and try, and connect people on the ground, as well as virtually. So we have a couple of virtual programs as well. So we do a lot with a busy team and try and make sure that we cover, you know, making sure people have a space to, for dialogue, for education and thought leadership.

00:08:19 Maria: I was going to ask if any of your staff actually sleep. That's so much work for a small team. That's incredible.

00:08:27 Jade: It is, but we're all very committed to our mandate. I mean, many of us who work in nonprofits are and so, you know, we have a very active team. But we also believe in work-life balance as well and try, and create as many of those opportunities for our staff to make sure that they're not overworking themselves as well. So we look for being effective, not over productive.

00:08:55 Maria: I love that you mentioned the research that you released last year in 2023 around barriers to leadership because that's something that many queer individuals or parts of our community face in our nonprofit sector as well. I know that there's some studies like Stats Canada is always tracking it and in the states what's called BoardSource is always tracking the kind of different intersections that people in leadership positions have. So I'd love to hear about some of those barriers to leadership positions that I usually say the queer community, as an umbrella term, but there's so many different intersections and different identities in that as well. So it's hard to kind of say the queer community faces this, but I wonder if there's some trends that you've noticed in that report.

00:09:46 Jade: Yeah. So we found that people with intersecting equity-deserving identities were really at the forefront of experiencing those barriers and having a larger impact on their career growth. One of the reasons for that is because one of the things that promotes career growth more than anything is having mentors and sponsors. A mentor gives you advice versus a sponsor who actively promotes you and tries to advocate on your behalf. And so mentors and sponsors are one of the biggest pieces for people to advance in their career for everybody.

00:10:41 Jade: And if you can't find people who look like you, who are like you in terms of identity, then it's much harder to be able to progress because often you're experiencing additional homophobia, transphobia, racism, ableism, when you're trying to make those connections. And as a result, less people are able to make those connections. And so that was one of the biggest things that came out of the research was really this barrier to getting mentors and sponsors who share your identity.

00:11:21 Jade: Though, interestingly enough, one of the things that also came out of the research was that having somebody who shared your identity was less important than somebody who was just active in doing the work with you and was an active mentor or sponsor. And so it's also important for those additional relationships to be created when they are, but more often than not, they aren't because people aren't seeing themselves represented. And so it's this kind of catch-22 where it's great to actually have a mentor or a sponsor who doesn't necessarily share all of your identity categories for your advancement, but they're less likely to mentor or sponsor you as a result.

00:12:14 Jade: And so that was one of the biggest things that we found. We also found that around social events, it's harder to build your network out when you're not feeling comfortable at social events and feeling safe at social events. So whether that's the work party, you're not comfortable bringing your partner to it, or you're not feeling safe to go into a space not being sure if it's going to be safe for you because you express your gender in a different way. And so there are multiple ways that kind of, these more social connections impact your development in terms of becoming a leader.

00:13:05 Jade: And then we also know from other research that people who come from multiple equity deserving groups, and this is especially true for two-spirit queer and trans people, that we're taking less seriously. And we're not respected as much and we have to work harder to get half as far, you know? And that is something that quite a bit of different research has showcased as well. So I think there's a few issues, but at the root of it, it's homophobia, biphobia and transphobia that's impacting people's career growth.

00:13:43 Maria: That's so horrible to hear, you know? Like thinking about all the progress that we think we've made as a sector, we think we've made as a society to know that there's still so many barriers to leadership, to creating change, to feeling like you can be your authentic self and be safe. And I know some of those come from the individual level of like, there's nobody who looks like me. That's not a space I want to be in comfortably, but also at an organizational level. Sometimes, DEI or anti-racism, anti-oppression is not taking, as seriously as it could be until there is a call out or a lawsuit or something like that. So I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about the organizational issues that may lead to that kind of determent as well.

00:14:42 Jade: Yeah. So if you're not creating the culture that is inclusive of the community, the community is not going to advance. They're not going to feel safe. They're not going to do their best work and often will exit the company if needed. But DEI or anti-oppression, anti-racism, for the context of this podcast, I'll probably be mostly using just DEI because that is the language that is often used, but, know that this is also coming from my background, which is as an anti-oppressive social worker. And so I do believe very strongly in thinking about things from an anti-oppressive perspective instead of a DEI perspective, because there can be a bit of a difference.

00:15:35 Jade: But DEI as a whole is something that organizations need to be doing as a forethought and not an afterthought, kind of as you were stating, you know, instead of having to wait for a call out or something along those lines. And you know, we really are looking at culture at the end of the day. We're looking at what is the culture of this workplace. And if the culture of that workplace is one that is rooted in whiteness, in cisness, in heterosexism, it isn't going to be one where everybody's going to be able to thrive and it isn't going to be one where everybody's going to be able to do the best job and be the best employee they can be.

00:16:32 Jade: And so I really look at it as, are you looking at every section of your organization from a DEI lens? Is that the responsibility of the organization as a whole or is it the responsibility of one individual where quite often it's put on one individual and that's when you know it's going to fail because there isn't the buy-in to actually do this work. And I think we often get stuck because we look at DEI as often just training. And quite often when a call out happens or it becomes known that, oh, we should have been doing this a long time ago. The first thing that people often go to is training.

00:17:26 Jade: And I think that is a mistake because training is not something that's going to necessarily change culture entirely. It's something that's going to have an impact, but only with the people who already are bought into the idea. So people who have buy-in on DEI training can be effective for, but people who don't have buy-in, you have to create that first. And you have to create that through your policies, through your procedures, through your recruitment. So making sure that you're recruiting equitably from different communities that when you're bringing people in, they're not the only one and they're not alone.

00:18:14 Jade: You know, you really have to create this cultural shift before you bring in training, in my opinion. Because otherwise your DEI efforts are likely going to fail because you're not addressing the broader cultural issues and the broader institutional issues. And so when we look at DEI, we really have to be starting from that culture place and that institutional place before we go to individual training or things of that nature.

00:18:47 Maria: Something that I've always struggled with as a leader in the space who, you know, I have many of these identities like, I'm bi, I'm an immigrant, I'm a refugee, like, I'm a woman, X, Y, and Z. Something that I struggle with is how much is the responsibility of an organization to bring along these individuals versus kick them out? You're an unsafe person, get out of here. And how much can an organization actually support people in their learning when it can be such a deeply intimate, personal journey that is a really hard look in the mirror for people who are trying to dismantle homophobic thoughts or transphobic thoughts or ableism, racism within themselves. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. Like what, is it the responsibility of the organization when it comes to either bringing those people along or not, not bringing them along?

00:19:51 Jade: I think it really depends on whether those people are in a place to be brought along because not everybody is. And if somebody is actively causing harm, then you have to have a discussion about that. You have to address it. It can't be something that you just say, Oh, well, that's just, you know, the X person. That's just the way they are. Or, you know, giving excuses. Oh, they're just from a different generation, which is something I hear too often. And you know, we really have to be aware of if people have a different cultural background, generational background, we have to be aware if they haven't had the opportunity to do this type of learning.

00:20:46 Jade: And so that is the place where I say, okay, we need to call those people in instead of just saying, okay, we're done with you and the like. Like I think of the example of pronoun usage. If somebody, English is not their first language and they're messing up on pronouns, that's probably maybe a language issue as well as something as, you know, potentially there's transphobia there, but potentially it may be a language piece because not every language has gendered pronouns like we have in English. And so, you know, we have to be aware of their cultural context as well and their linguistic context of how they're coming into this situation.

00:21:35 Jade: On a generational issue, if people may not have had the same level of education and opportunity for education as we have had. I even think of the generation younger than me and their access to knowledge about things like the residential schools. Like I learned nothing about the residential schools when I was in school, nothing, nothing. It wasn't until I took an Aboriginal social work course, not, was the term of the course at the time, that I actually learned about the residential schools at all, I didn't know about them. I was in my mid 20s at that point, or early 20s. And, you know, so we really have to take moments of compassion with folks.

00:22:30 Jade: But if we give them moments of compassion and moments of opportunity for growth, and then they're still not providing that moment, then you need to address things. And you maybe need to shift who's at the organization and put people into, you know, performance plans or things of that nature, including if they're board members. And, you know, I think of board members in this as well as staff and volunteers. And, you know, I think back to when I was a volunteer manager, and we had one volunteer who had been with us for, I want to say 20 plus years. It had been quite a very, very long stint. He had done a lot of work with the organization. But at the end of the day, he was a bit racist and he actively used the N-word with a Black volunteer.

00:23:32 Jade: And I think in that case, it was a situation where we had to say that was unacceptable, that can never happen again. You have to go through this additional training because we were doing staff training and volunteer training at the time, so it was actively ongoing. You have to be part of this. And otherwise, we have to say goodbye. And in the end, we actually did say goodbye to that volunteer because they were not open to learning. They were not open to growing. And they were actively causing harm that was resulting in other volunteers leaving the organization.

00:24:15 Jade: And this was at an LGBTQ organization. It was at, like, you know, a queer nonprofit. Not my current one, but a previous one that I've worked at. So, you know, you really have to figure out that balance, but I always say that we have to start from compassion and give people the opportunity to grow. And it's only if they don't grow that we say goodbye.

00:24:41 Maria: What about when it comes to, kind of, repairing the harm? So, for example, if I was that Black volunteer, I would just be like, wow, how many times does this person have to say something so aggressively horrible to me until it gets kind of taken? How many chances do they get? I don't want to be in the same room as that person, kind of thing. So like how many, like how does repairing the harm work for the injured party?

00:25:08 Jade: I think that depends on the injured party. So just for a bit of context, because I think I misspoke a little bit. But the N-word was said in that person's presence, not directly to that person, but still it was said in that person's presence. And so that did change the dynamic a little bit. But I really think that it depends on that person and what they need for that repair. Because sometimes it means that they need to have a moment of apology. Sometimes it means that they need that person to leave the organization. Sometimes it means that they decide that they just don't want to be a part of the organization.

00:25:54 Jade: And that was the decision of this volunteer, which I was disappointed by. I was sad by, not disappointed, I was sad by, but understood as well. And it really kind of said to us that we had to make this more broader change as an organization. And that we had to do the work and that was on us. And so sometimes repair can't happen fully, but it really depends on that individual. If they want repair, if they are looking for it, and then providing those spaces of apology, of making accommodations, like making sure that that volunteer never has to work with the other volunteer, again, creating some of those broader changes.

00:26:53 Jade: And that's actually one of the things that we did was we actually did with the volunteer that caused the harm, we made sure that they weren't working with any others except specific older volunteers that had understood what had happened and were able to coach him in particular. And so it's really about creating that space for repair to happen. But sometimes people are not looking for that. They just kind of say this is it. And I think that we have to be aware of that. And we have to be prepared for that. And we have to use it as a learning moment to change the organization as a whole. Because the reality is, is that racism, homophobia, biphobia, transphobia, it's inherent in pretty much every organization. It's going to happen because it's in our society.

00:27:54 Jade: And so we have to be prepared for when it happens, not if. And I don't think as an organization, we had been prepared for the, when at that time. I had just come on as a volunteer coordinator. It was a bit of a shocking moment to start an organization, to have that happen. But it was something that we had to deal with at that time.

00:28:23 Maria: Sorry to hear that happened so quickly into your new job.

00:28:27 Jade: These things happen.

00:28:28 Maria: I'm getting so into, I love if you could give me an example of not necessarily, like name a company or organization, but just, like something that they have implemented that may not be the obvious, like, use an accessible bathroom instead of not value aligned, DEI aligned initiative.

00:28:49 Jade: So, I mean, there are the simple things like, you know, making sure that you have accessibility checklists for your events, making sure that you have, like, accessible bathrooms, gender inclusive bathrooms, those types of things. But I think something that is a bit more interesting is leadership chats, where you actually have people who are in less senior positions, who get to have one-on-ones with senior leadership, and kind of do a reverse mentoring, where there is a mentorship moment that happens between them. And that results in leadership having a better understanding of equity deserving groups' experiences and sometimes leads to change within the organization, but also can lead to promotion and real development for that person who is in the lower position.

00:30:06 Jade: So that's something that I think is really interesting and is something that is a bit different. Of course, I always look at action plans as something important. So making, sure that you have a plan of action of how you're going to create organizational change, but also in terms of your structure as well. So I think of making sure that you have different options in terms of people doing virtual work and in-person work in the in-person spaces, making sure that there are different options. I recently visited EY, which is a very large organization, but they have a neurodiverse floor where they have different types of lighting.

00;31:04 Jade: They have reduced sounds, they have different types of furniture, and really, trying to create a space that is welcoming for neurodiverse people, which I think is really interesting and amazing. And something that we could be doing more of is creating, kind of some of those differing spaces. And so, you know, having those connections to leadership, having those different spaces are really two of the things that I see as kind of unique ways of creating space for all.

00:31:45 Maria: I love both of those examples. Thank you. Something else that I would love to kind of pick your brain on is the responsibility of an organization when it comes to having practices like that already in place versus waiting for someone to disclose. And then it's like if someone discloses, oh, it's one person. Do you know what I mean? Sometimes they just put it as like, I've only had one person say that they are neurodivergent. So do we really have to implement these changes for everyone? What do you think about that?

00:32:16 Jade: I think that's very short sighted to call a spade a spade. I think that we need to be creating these spaces first. And then we will see people from those communities come forward and be within those organizations. And I mean, some of the most economically disadvantaged groups. So I think of disabled folks, I think of Black and indigenous folks, I think of trans folks. All have great stats when it comes to being employees in terms of the amount of work that we create, in terms of the amount of labor that we do, in terms of the longevity at organizations. Disabled folks have some of the longest longevity at organizations in comparison to some other groups.

00:33:20 Jade: So I think there's the business case there, which I don't always like to go to, but sometimes that's what you need to use to talk to people. I don't think it's the be all and end all by any means. And then I think there's the moral case. It's the right thing to do. It's the right thing to do to create a space for everybody to feel welcome, to feel like they can bring at least a portion of their authentic self to work. I think it's very rare that anybody is able to bring all of their authentic self to work. We all choose what we bring and what we don't bring. But we should be able to bring as much as we want to bring. And I think that is the important piece. And we will see a better workplace culture for all when we do those things.

00:34:10 Jade: You know, putting in push buttons for folks in wheelchairs, for doors had a great impact for people in strollers, people who were having a bad day, people who wanted to get through in a different way, people who were carrying multiple things. When we create spaces that are welcoming for people of equity deserving groups, we actually create more space for everybody. And I think that's the important piece that is often missed.

00:34:42 Maria: I love all of that. Are there any kind of tips or last thoughts that you would provide to a small organization around maybe they've been thinking about this, maybe they've started implementing it, but they're not getting very far when it comes to DEI, anti-racism, anti-oppression? What would you say to them?

00:35:01 Jade: I would say create an inclusion council. And so an inclusion council would be made up of staff. If you're a very small organization, then also board and volunteers. So depending on how large you are, sometimes you want to have more just board and staff involved. If you're smaller, you might want some volunteers on there. But have a diversity of folks on that committee and make it a priority of the organization as a whole. So in some organizations, they make it a committee of the board of directors to showcase its importance and how it is a important piece. And, you know, don't just put it on one person at the end of the day.

00:35:50 Jade: So that's the biggest tip that I have is, make sure that you create this space for an inclusion council overall and that you have a diversity of experiences, backgrounds, identities on that committee. And that committee can then recreate and look at the different ways that they can create culture at the organization and create an inclusive culture. At some organizations, they actually call it the culture committee. And it becomes a bit of a mix between an inclusion council and a social committee. But really make sure that that workload is spread out and that you have a diversity of voices at the table.

00:36:34 Jade: Because I think if we put it all on our executive director, or we put it all on the board, or we put it all on volunteers, we're not going to have an equitable playing field in terms of the impact. And we're not going to actually address it in all areas of the organization. So that's the biggest tip that I would have. And then the other tip that I would say is, don't do this alone. Don't feel like you have to do this all alone. Get an outside consultant. Talk to other organizations.

00:37:12 Jade: When I was creating our action plans at our organization, which includes a poverty reduction action plan, an accessibility action plan, anti-black racism action plan, and an Indigenous commitment action plan, in retrospect, I may have just created one that was more consolidated, but we created these four plans and we reached out to people and said, you know, what was your experience like? What did you go through? And I think that is something that is really important because these issues aren't new. Racism, homophobia, biphobia, transphobia, ableism, sexism, none of these issues are new. And so also the responses to them aren't necessarily new either. And we can really find that support by just going to other organizations who've gone through similar journeys and see what their experience is like.

00:38:16 Maria: Jade, thank you so much for joining me today. This has been such a great conversation. And I find that what you're saying is so common sense, but also really innovative. So I, I'm so thankful for your time today.

00:38:30 Jade: Happy to be with you.

00:38:31 Maria: And thank you all for listening to this episode of The Small Nonprofit Podcast. I will link Jade's LinkedIn and Pride at Work Canada's website in the show notes. If there's an opportunity to continue the conversation, Jade, are you happy for people to reach out to you?

00:38:47 Jade: Yeah, please feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn. I'm more than happy to connect with folks and to share some of those best practices as well.

00:38:57 Maria: Also, as always, if you want to see our lovely faces, we have this podcast also in video format on YouTube. So you can look at that in the show notes as well. But until next time, thank you for listening and bye for now.

00:39:14 Maria: Thank you for listening to another episode of The Small Nonprofit. If you want to continue the conversation, feel free to connect with our guests directly or find me on LinkedIn. Let's keep moving money to mission and prioritizing our well-being. Bye for now.