Release the Outcome with Maryanne Dersch
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Sometimes you feel like you're constantly chasing, juggling, and maybe even losing ground. It's difficult not to get extremely overwhelmed, but Maryanne says it is time to break those patterns! We dive deep into the art of influence with Maryanne Dersch. “It's not about mind control or manipulation. This is about stepping into your own power, crafting a vision, and inspiring your team, board, AND donors to get on board with excitement”
Maryanne Dersch has three decades of experience helping organizations connect authentically. She's a consultant, coach, teacher, podcaster, purple-enthusiast – she does it all! In this episode, learn how to shift from a scarcity mindset to a place of empowerment by managing fear, building confidence, and mastering that magnetic, influential leadership style.
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Key Episode Highlights:
Doubt is normal, but don't let it rule you. Fear of criticism is part of leadership. Channel Maryanne's "undefended queen" mindset to stay focused on your mission, not external validation.
Invite, don't demand. Influence is all about offering choices. Give donors and your team the option to get to do things – it builds ownership rather than resistance.
Release the outcome. When you're overly attached to a specific result, you stifle energy and creativity. Focus on being a value, and the results will naturally follow.
Look inward to lead outward. Communicating effectively with your team creates a ripple effect. To be truly influential, start by practicing the skills within your organization.
This IS for you! Even if you're a small nonprofit, the power of influence can transform your operations. Learn to inspire enthusiasm in everyone around you for greater impact!
Don’t forget to become a supporter of our show!
Watch this episode on Youtube: https://youtu.be/1-_aVugy33Y
Links and Resources:
Up Level Your Influence Starter Kit!https://www.courageouscommunication.com/up-level-your-influence-starter-kit
Connect with Maryanne on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/maryanne.dersch
Courageous Communication Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/courageouscommunication/
Connect with Maryanne on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/maryannedersch/
Connect with Maria on LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mariario/
Support the show: https://www.buzzsprout.com/208666/supporters/new
Transcript:
00:00:00 Maryanne: You don't make people care. All you can do is send out your signal, stand in your value, and look for like-minded people who share your vision, and they found those people. And so walking with them through this process is a gift, but that's really what courageous communication means. It means standing in my value, releasing the outcome, and letting go happen what's gonna happen, because in the end, that's where the good stuff is.
00:00:24 Maria: Hi friends. Ever wondered how you could turn your big ideas into results? I'm Maria Rio, your go-to guide for helping small nonprofits have real world impacts. Together, let's reimagine a better sector, tackle systemic issues, and yes, raise some serious cash. Welcome back to The Small Nonprofit, the podcast where your passion meets action.
00:00:53 Maria: Hi friends, welcome back to the Small Nonprofit Podcast. I am here with the purple lady herself, Maryanne. I'm so excited to have you on today.
00:01:05 Maryanne: Thank you for having me. I am wearing blue though, so this is a compliment, but everything else, we've got the purple going.
00:01:11 Maria: The lipstick is purple, that's what counts.
00:01:13 Maryanne: Yes, ma'am.
00:01:16 Maria: Maryanne, so nice to have you here today. Could you quickly introduce yourself to our audience? Just let them know what you're all about.
00:01:23 Maryanne: Yeah. So I'm Maryanne Dersch. My company is Courageous Communication, and I work with nonprofit leaders to master the art of influence so they can build communities of support and move their missions.
00:01:36 Maria: Nice. I like it. And how did you fall into nonprofit? Was it on purpose, by accident? Who falls into nonprofit on purpose?
00:01:48 Maryanne: Yeah. You know, that's a great question. And it was actually with intention. When I was an advertising major, this is going back, okay, because I graduated college in '88. When I was an advertising major in college and I really loved the creativity and the words and the marketing and all of that. And I also had a strong social justice heart. And I remember one of the students in my class saying to me one day, like, what are you going to do with all the social justice stuff? When in advertising, I'm like, what? What a stupid question. I remember because most questions that we think are stupid questions are actually probably really great questions. We just don't want to consider.
00:02:29 Maryanne: And I realized very quickly that I was not made for the advertising world because there's a part of me that needed to be emotionally connected to what I was doing. And a lot of my friends, it didn't matter, but it did matter to me. And so my best friend, Jim, who is still my best friend, was a fundraiser and he still works in fundraising, but he's on the philanthropy side. Anyway, he said, you should be a nonprofit because I didn't even know what that was. There wasn't any nonprofit schools or anything at the time. And so I started to network like, yes, so it was a chance for me to express my talents, but in a way that made me feel like I was doing good, which is all I ever wanted. So there was some intention to it at the time.
00:03:16 Maria: And how did courageous communications come about then? Why was that born?
00:03:20 Maryanne: Here, this is such a good question. Okay, so this is a true story. I worked for many years for different organizations. And then I worked for 16 years for a company called 501 Creative. And during that time, I did marketing, messaging, communication plans for a non-profit suite. I worked with web designers, developers, writers, and I learned all of these things. And I knew I wanted to have a business and I knew I wanted to help people and I wanted to write this book and speak and train and coach and all those things. And I didn't really know how to put it all together so that it made sense.
00:03:58 Maryanne: So I'm sitting in my therapist's office. That's how all good stories start. I'm sitting in my therapist's office and my friend who's still my friend, but my friend had a couple of days earlier sort of criticized me. Well, Maryanne, you always want the spotlight. I don't understand why, you know, you can't.
00:04:17 Maria: What's wrong with that?
00:04:20 Maryanne: There isn't.
00:04:21 Maria: Why do you think I wear purple everywhere?
00:04:23 Maryanne: There isn't. Okay, so I am a more knowledgeable person than I was in this moment. But because when somebody criticizes you, it's really about them. And it was about her because she was actually very envious of me and how much I embraced the spotlight. Guess who's in her own rock band right now, because we're in our 50s. So anyway, so I was explaining to my therapist how much this comment had hurt me and blah, blah, blah. And she looks at me, she goes, well, praise and criticism are the same thing.
00:04:50 Maryanne: And I'm like, well, that's ridiculous because one feels so good and one feels so bad. And she said, but there are just other people's opinions of you and a whole person doesn't need praise to make them feel good. And a whole person doesn't like criticism, they rail them. And Maria, this is absolutely in that moment. In that moment, I just kind of called the divine download where everything made sense after this moment, which is I realized at that moment that I was overly dependent on praise and terrified of criticism and that if I was going to do the things that I needed to do in the world that I was being called to do, I needed to learn how to manage both those things.
00:05:27 Maryanne: And second, all my clients, all my non-profit, they were also overly dependent on praise and terrified of criticism. Because anytime you come from a place of feeling less than, you have to like, I have to be more than you so I can just feel equal than you. And in our non-profit culture, we often feel less than because we're non or a negative to begin with, doesn't matter where I'm not, where I'm not profit. Oh, well, thanks for defining me by what I'm not. So I realized right then that no wonder, first of all, no wonder I'm in this industry, and second, now I know the work I need to do.
00:06:00 Maryanne: And in that moment, that's when Courageous Communication was born. And my work is really about that. If you're going to say something important, somebody's not gonna like it. And we all wanna do and say important things and have move missions and change and no change ever happens without making somebody mad. It's just not possible.
00:06:21 Maryanne: So how can you then not take away the criticism, but be able to look at the balance of both and the need for both and embrace both and that's how Courageous Communication was born. And if you wanna step into the spotlight, but you only want the kind of shine that you want, that's not how it works, right? We put our whole self into the spotlight and that's truly exactly how it happened.
00:06:43 Maria: And I think that's such an interesting story and so powerful to hear how you turn something that could have been really negative, like a negative criticism piece into a whole thriving business, into a different way of being. And it's something that you can actually teach nonprofit leaders.
00:07:01 Maryanne: Yeah. And you have to remember when those criticisms come, they're often a mirror and a lesson for you if you choose to see it that way and yeah, and thank you for that because thank you for her comment and thank you for my tears because I was able then to be like, have that really like, oh wait, hold on. And immediately go, oh, this is okay. Cause I do think there's a lot of them in the nonprofit space where we really need everyone to love us and the one person like, oh, like terrified of criticism and how that keeps us small and keeps us from really having bold visions and making bold decisions because, well, the nasty C word, criticism.
00:07:43 Maria: I'd love to get a little bit more context on what you mean by less than or fewer criticism. How does that show up in nonprofits?
00:07:52 Maryanne: I'll give you an example of one of my clients, the Sisters of St. Joseph of Carondelet. And if you know anything about sisters, they are often the, can I swear on this? Can I say it? They have no power. They have no money. And they are often at the front lines of social reform. And in the past, the sisters were often in classrooms. So a lot of people who have been supporters of the sisters over many years came from a classroom experience.
00:08:32 Maryanne: But the sisters evolved. Now the sisters are marching in the pride parade. My oldest is trans. That's why this is like really. They have a trans ministry. They minister to prisoners. They go to the border and minister there. And so they are all about what they call the dear neighbor. And in the marketing, and maybe the marketing was staying a little shy of some of the things that the sisters were doing, lest the folks that have old timers kind of be a little off put by that because now we're going to have a gap in values. And it's scary.
00:09:14 Maryanne: It's scary for a donor who's been a part of an organization to feel like they're changing and kind of leaving that donor behind. It's scary for an organization to stand up in their truth because they don't really want to make people mad. And so they were maybe not talking as much about some of the things that they were doing. That's what I mean by like playing small because they were afraid of the criticism that it would bring. And what I learned, and oh my many years of doing this, which is many years, is what we look for are like, if I had this perfect message or this brochure, then I'd feel better.
00:09:51 Maryanne: And actually, it's the opposite. We feel better and stand in our value and that place from power and possibility. Now we're going to create a message. So if we go back to the sisters, it wasn't creating the right message. It was starting with individuals in that organization and the mission advancement communications team to understand that it's okay that people are upset and that it's okay for things to end because we release what no longer serves us to make room for what does. And that it's okay for those people to be upset that the values of the sisters are changing.
00:10:28 Maryanne: And so what that looks like is their next magazine that they put out had the trans article was the cover about their transgender ministry. That was huge for them. And just really putting that out there. I remember the day they changed their Facebook profile to the pride flag. And we watched a discussion of how the sisters that have their faith wrong. And then I was like, they, you know, da da da da. But there was a dialogue happening. And that's fine. And nobody on the staff got upset.
00:11:04 Maryanne: Nobody's running around trying to fix it. They got two phone calls that said, I can't do this anymore. Like we completely understand. We get it. And that's okay. So we see people for who they are and who we want them to be. And so helping them step up into that. So it was an internal game first, then it was external. So they could stand in that and they could receive. But here's the thing Maria, that is beautiful about the story is there's so much more energy now. We just had a big meeting the other day.
00:11:33 Maryanne: How many more people are coming to their events, how many more people are interested in what the sisters are doing. Because when we release what no longer serves us, we create room for what does. Because there's a lot of people who are looking for themselves and saw themselves in what the sisters were doing. And so my biggest thing is, you don't make people care. You can't make people care. All you can do is send out your signal, stand in your value, and look for like-minded people who share your vision. And they found those people.
00:12:01 Maryanne: And so walking with them through this process is a gift, but that's really what Courageous Communication means. It means standing in my value, releasing the outcome and letting go happen what's gonna happen. Cause in the end, that's where the good stuff is. The good stuff isn't in the keeping and the control and trying to Rubik's cube everything you say.
00:12:19 Maria: I'm so glad that you added that part of like alienating some people makes room for the people who align with your values, who align with what you're saying. It's not necessarily a bad thing to let some people go and find more values aligned organization. I just wanted to go back to the thing earlier that you mentioned where the sisters are facing the possibility of criticism and that's what's actually informing their decision. They haven't actually faced any criticism at this point yet.
00:12:50 Maryanne: That is correct. And how fear lives in just the possibility of it without any research.
00:12:54 Maria: Without asking donors.
00:12:57 Maryanne: You know.
00:12:58 Maria: That we're going to have a negative response sometimes when that's not the case.
00:13:02 Maryanne: That is exactly true. And even if we do have a negative response, it's often a lot more minimal than our brain would ever have us believe that it is. And that's just one example. There are so many examples of really the fear. And one of the things that we talk about in the folks that I coach and train is we make decisions out of fear, we create more fear. So when we're attached to an outcome, I can't do that because somebody's going to do this.
00:13:28 Maryanne: Then... Now we're acting out of fear and anytime you act out of fear, you create more fear. And so the idea is, and I say this all the time, what I call release the outcome. And when you release the outcome, like we're going to say what's important for us to say and whatever's going to happen, we know we have the ability to manage. Because everybody, you know, remember like 10 years ago, everybody wanted to be a thought leader. Oh, I want to be a thought leader. Well, that being a thought leader means you have to say important things.
00:13:54 Maryanne: There could be people who agree with those things and who don't, and that's okay. I don't need to change anybody's mind. I don't need anybody to be different than they are. All I'm looking for are people who go, yep, that's me.
00:14:07 Maria: I love this. So I have my style of have grown into being more confident and outspoken over the last, I would say like five years, but it is a very long process and many people don't have help in navigating how to let go of fear and how to just accept yourself fully and bring that whole self to work. I wonder if there's a tip or two that you could offer to fundraisers or organizations that are facing this fear of how to let go and own their power, their values or mission.
00:14:41 Maryanne: Yeah. It's a practice. I think Maria, you said, you're evolving. This is a practice. This isn't something like, oh, I've got this. I'm good. We're always evolving because if we're not evolving, then why be here? And so in the evolution of us growing into that confidence, and so it's not something that like, Oh, I can master, you know, it's like, you know, like a yoga or whatever. It's a practice. So first of all, just settling into that, this isn't a problem to be solved. I often say, is this a problem to be solved or a paradox we need to manage? This is a paradox we get to learn to manage, which means sometimes I feel confident. Sometimes I feel doubt.
00:15:19 Maryanne: I'm going to get to your answer. I want you to hang with me. Okay? Because there is a place in life for doubt. Doubt is important because if we didn't have doubt, we'd just be like off the rails. So there's cotton there about again, praise, criticism, peace and conflict, confidence and doubt. There's a balance. So I don't want to erase the doubt because there's a place for it. And my friend and I were, we go out every Monday night and he just remodels homes and he just bought two houses. And every time he buys them, like, Oh God, what am I doing?
00:15:48 Maryanne: He's like, oh God, what have I done? I'm like, yeah, what have you done? Let's remove the judgment from that sentence. What have you done? Well, I made two really good investments. There we go. But there's doubt, of course there's doubt because if there wasn't doubt, he would just be like buying homes. You know what I'm saying? So there's a room for doubt and it's a beautiful thing. And then there's confidence. So there's a place for both. So first let's accept that, that it's a balance. Anytime you're doing something new or scary, the doubt's gonna creep in, that's its job. And you say, thank you, doubt, for doing your job.
00:16:19 Maryanne: What I work on and I think is the most important thing for us to work on as fundraisers, as leaders, as beings in the universe is what I call sovereignty. I'm going to show you this. I am the queen. Okay? I am the queen. Okay? I am the queen and I am sovereign. So I call it the undefended queen and I can grasp this persona or this higher expanded version of myself. And the queen, she says what's important and what's not.
00:16:46 Maryanne: And it's not about the outcome, it's about staying sovereign. So when I focus on just staying sovereign and releasing the outcome, so whether somebody gives or not, does not determine my worth. Whether somebody says yes or no, does not determine my worth. Whether somebody criticizes me or not, does not determine my worth. And that is because I decide, I create, I set the pattern. It's right. So whatever that mantra, whatever that thing is to tell yourself, to keep you like, to remind yourself of your power and your sovereignty. That is the first thing.
00:17:19 Maryanne: And then the second thing is remembering that everything is happening for you as a lesson for you. So when my friend criticized me, when you don't want to say something to a donor because they might get mad, and you're like, you don't know how to have the conversation, then you, you know, you're pulling it out and then they get upset. And, okay, this is all information. And it's like creating this 10,000 foot view of your life and stepping outside so that that person can be upset and I can hold space for their disappointment and whatever they have without it jumping into me.
00:17:57 Maryanne: Now I'm upset and I feel bad because now I feel like it's stirring up stuff in me. And what we wind up doing is clamping down or avoiding those subjects because, or those people, because it's gonna make us feel bad. So it's like, it's okay for that person to be upset. I totally get it. But sometimes if people come with an objection or a reservation, we want to solve that right away because like it's bringing up like, how was the event? Oh, it was great. But I didn't really like how the VIP went. And you're like, oh, well, you know, we tried so hard to do it right away. You're trying to, you know, smooth it over instead of saying, oh, that's so interesting. Tell me more about that. What makes you say that? Because I can hold myself sovereign. Listen, I'm not perfect at this but you can practice this to go and you can get better at it.
00:18:44 Maria: I think everything that you're saying is so trauma informed and like really good at naming things and separating criticism from your feelings and your worth. That can be really hard for people in the sector, especially for women. It can be really, really difficult. So I think having those conversations are so important. I wanted to touch back on something that you had said earlier around influencing people. People might have a negative connotation of that word, but I'd love to hear what your thoughts are on the power of influence. Now that you have kind of worked through practicing getting over fear or balancing your fear versus your confidence, how do you then move that forward into the next step?
00:19:31 Maryanne: So I love this and you're right, there's a little baggage to the word influence. Influencer, it feels a little manipulative and dishonest. And so when I talk about influence, you think of all the people in your life that you have no authority over and you need to move them to action. So for nonprofit folks, this is a lot of people, right? Because you've got donors and volunteers and board and even people you do have authority over. And it's about getting people that you don't have authority over or sometimes do to choose to do what you want them to do.
00:20:06 Maryanne: And that they have to do it that they need to do it. Oh, God, I need to go to that board meeting. Like I choose to go to the board meeting. I get to go to the board meeting. They're excited. And it's that energy of choice. So when I allow somebody to choose, when I allow more room for someone to choose, they typically choose what I want them. When we tell people what to do, they push back. So if I say, hey, whatever you decide is totally okay with me, they're mostly going to decide what you want. And it's the energy of choice.
00:20:33 Maryanne: And so the thing about influence that I see is influence means that I'm inviting you into a vision. I'm inviting you into an organization because I think it's a win for both of us. Manipulation means I think it's a win for me and I don't care what it looks like for that person that's like really pushing a car sale or something. They don't care if it's a good idea for you or not. They want the sale. And I think in a way, this is how development kind of used to be. Just go get it, go get it, go get it, go get it. Push, push, push until they give.
00:21:08 Maryanne: And the new way is, hey, if you want to invest, that's amazing. And if not, that's okay too. Whatever you decide is totally okay, because I'm sovereign. So when I release the outcome and I detach from the outcome, I'm allowing people to make an empowered choice. And when they make an empowered choice, that is ... now, this is the energy of choice. Now they're excited to do it. They get to do it. And that's a whole different game. And so it's from us to like, I don't have to call that donor. I choose to call them. I get to call them. I'm excited to connect with them, because I don't need anything from anybody. And anytime you put the money before the relationship, that's when it gets weird.
00:21:46 Maryanne: So it's like, oh, wait, hold on. Relationship first, money will follow. My only job is when I'm of value to you, you're of value to me. And that is the two principles of influence is it's a win for both of us. And all I need to worry about is when I'm a value to you, you'll be a value to me. These are things I practice in my business. All of these things I'm telling you, this is how I run my business and my life. I eat my own cooking. I take my own wisdom and there's grace and ease and flow instead of feeling like every day you got to push the rock, the fundraising rock up the hill.
00:22:20 Maria: I love how you're saying like I don't need anything from anyone because whether you're trying to have a board member come to a decision on something or talk to a donor about a gift, it puts you in the same level of power and then the same playing field, which is really nice and I think it's different from how a lot of people approach nonprofit work.
00:22:43 Maryanne: Yeah. Like when you raise your standard, people will rise to meet it or they'll fall away. And that's just the truth of the world. And I've seen it over and over again. So when somebody comes to me and they're looking for some guidance or some training and they say, you know, my board, they just don't do anything. And I say, okay, so let's talk. When did it become okay with you that they kind of flew the engagement flag at half mast, like because there was something in them that maybe didn't want to ask. So once you rate, hey, this is how we operate and people go, oh, okay. Or they just they fall away. And it's really an inside out game.
00:23:20 Maryanne: And that's what I've learned over the years is energy precedes outcomes. And so we don't, we think about everything we're going to say the perfect pitch. And I love words. We never think about what's the energy we're creating, right? How are we approaching because the desperation and people can sense that. And when you're coming up to someone and you need it and they feel it and they pull back and they shut down, we're like, hey, I have this opportunity. If it's for you, great. If not, that's totally okay. I completely understand.
00:23:49 Maryanne: And I wanna say one more thing about that because here's what I see a lot of is what I call fantasy relationships. So we're all nice people. And a lot of times you'll ask somebody and they'll give you the two responses, let me think about it and get back to you, or can you send me something in writing and I'll take a look at it. Those are ways of saying no without saying no. But if we're not open to receiving a no, we're gonna pretend that that was something that they were gonna do. But most of the time when people say, let me think about it and get back to you.
00:24:17 Maryanne: They're not really gonna get back to you. They just don't know how to say no in the moment. So when I give somebody, whatever you decide is totally okay. Yeah, this isn't for me. Hey, no problem. Love it. Thank you for that because now I can bless and release and move on to the first. So what happens is we keep emailing. Well, they said they were interested and were emailing and they're not emailing back. Well, you know, okay. So if somebody says, let me think about it and get back to you, you say, that sounds great. Why don't you think about it and let's talk next week? What does Thursday look like? And they'll either schedule a time with you during that time or they'll hesitate. And if they hesitate, then you're like, hey, if this isn't for you, that's completely fine.
00:24:56 Maria: Oh yeah, I just have a question about like, so is influencing getting someone to stop from falling away? Is it kind of like bringing them in a little bit closer or is that the wrong idea?
00:25:09 Maryanne: I think it's a yes and I don't think it's one or the other. Influence means I'm getting people to give an empowered choice. And if that empowered choice is not for me, that's totally okay. And if that empowered choice is, yeah, let's keep talking about it. Then let's put it on the calendar. And that's it. So it's all about the energy of choice. Because if you give people a choice, I'll give you an example, how this works in my life. So my son who's 19, he did this program in the fall where he works. He has a job at night and he's a cook, but then during the day he was doing this program to put diversity in unions, My Kids Are Black.
00:25:47 Maryanne: So he was doing this program where they would go to different unions every day. So he's getting up at like six or seven in the morning doing that till three or four and then going to work. So it was rough mornings. So every morning I would say, AJ, are you going to your program today? Because I'm not saying AJ get to your product. Or hey are you gonna do your program today? Yes. Okay, we need to be leaving here in about 30 minutes. He had to choose every day whether he was going to do it or not. I'm not choosing for him. And then that choice, then he can make that empowered choice for himself.
00:26:23 Maryanne: Now, what would happen if he chose to say no? Then now like, oh, but I don't want him to think he's not. So I have to release the outcome and that's going to fall wherever that's going to fall. Most likely though, if I can release the outcome and give somebody the choice, they're going to choose what I want. So in a sense of your question is, when being an influential leader means enrolling people in a vision and creating a community of support where you know that you are supported, where you know that you feel confident that everything you need is around you. And what you don't need, you don't have to worry about. So those folks that weren't for you, that's okay. And you can let them go.
00:27:01 Maria: How did you come to this kind of mentality around it? Was it easy for you? Was it natural? Was it a lot of practice, as you're saying?
00:27:10 Maryanne: I think it was easy, natural practice, all the things. Maria, here's the thing, I have done, and I still do, a lot of really good work. And I would look and see how some organizations, the work that we did when I was in 501 Creative, how some organizations really took to this process and took to the brand and embraced it and loved it. Other organizations were like, yeah, it was okay, but it didn't land the same way. It was good, but it wasn't as great as it could be.
00:27:40 Maryanne: It wasn't the quality of the message. It was their ability to receive. And I realized that communications is an internal game. To communicate effectively externally, we need to communicate effectively internally. And to do that internally means we need to be more conscious leaders of ourselves and understand how feelings affect our day-to-day decision-making. But that came to me over a lot of time and observation that what we wanted was the message or the elevator pitch or the brochure. I just had that I'd be confident. Or just saying, what if we worked on building your confidence?
00:28:14 Maryanne: And then from that place created that elevator pitch. And now you can really use these tools. It's like being shot out of a cannon. It's so exciting. And then also, I was trying to reverse engineer these principles into the projects I was working on. And finally, my business coach said to me, why don't you just teach people what you want them to know? Because if I can teach you this foundational skill, everything in your life is going to be easier. Your board relationships, your donor relationships, your staff relationships, your friendly relationships.
00:28:43 Maryanne: Once you understand how to enroll people in a vision, the energy of choice, empowered choices, it's all different. And fundraising becomes grace and ease and flow and all of that. So that's when I said, okay. And then my work became more and more about doing this work to prepare them for the external work. That one step before.
00:29:08 Maria: So is it a teachable and learnable skill?
00:29:10 Maryanne: 100%.
00:29:11 Maria: What?
00:29:13 Maryanne: I've had hundreds of people who've done this, hundreds. And then their lives are forever changed because of it. And even it's just like, if they release the outcome or whatever, yes, this is a learnable skill. Everyone has their own influence inside of them. It's a matter of just understanding it and unlocking it and committing to the practice of it. Again, this isn't something like I can just teach you. This is a practice and that you're working on and evolving into. But how you can then really mobilize resources in a way that you hadn't before because hustle and grind isn't sustainable. Grace and ease and flow is sustainable. So if you can get to where it feels like it's an ease and flow to it, it's going to be very energy rich and you're going to be able to sustain it. Anybody can hustle and grind for nine months.
00:30:05 Maria: Absolutely. For our listeners, where do you think are some actionable tips that they can take away to start kind of implementing this?
00:30:13 Maryanne: So the first thing is I really look at three things from this. If you want a little mini lesson, first is release the outcome, let go of what you want, because what we're taught is the more we want something, the more likely we are to get it. And actually, that's opposite. The less we want it, the more likely we are to get it. Because again, if you're acting that I have to get something, you're acting out of fear of what could not happen. And that's going to create more fear. So the first thing is work on releasing the outcome, whatever that looks like for you. If it's a faith, if you can call it a faith aspect of your life or whatever, know that whatever's happening, whatever's going to happen was meant to happen and it's fine. So tapping into that energy.
00:30:57 Maryanne: And the second thing is, and I love words, and you love words, and I love words, but it's really not about what you say. People don't give because of what you say. It's because of who they are. So our job is to listen, listen. So I'm gonna release the outcome and listen, because if I truly listen without expectation or without an agenda, I can hear so much more. And then the third thing is listen for an opening. So what that means is, I don't have to sell you or pitch you or convince you. All I have to do is listen. And if there's something that you need either to relieve a pain or to create a gain, create something you want in your life, then all I have to do is like, oh, and what I have can meet those needs, then I just share that. And so it's a shift in I don't have to pitch or sell or convince.
00:31:49 Maryanne: It's important to have all those details and all that. We don't lead with that. We lead with releasing the outcome and then listening. And if we hear something that somebody's saying and a need that we could meet, that's an opening. And now I can't meet your needs until I know what they are. And so many times we're like, here's 11 ways you can get involved with my nonprofit. And we give that to somebody. And I love having 11 ways that you can get involved with your nonprofit, but how about you put that aside and you listen.
00:32:16 Maryanne: And when somebody says, oh, our employees love quarterly outings, they're da-da-da-da. Oh, we have a program like that. I would love to share that with you. You might really like that for your employees. Now there's a context. And now it was their idea. And yeah, I would love to say that. So oftentimes we put the burden of choice on somebody else. I'm not saying like, I gotta look through that whole sponsorship thing and say, well, which one do I want? But if somebody would really listen, they would say, I think, I really think this might be for you. I would love to share it if that's okay with you. Because I'm giving them a choice to listen to it or not.
00:32:53 Maryanne: Yeah, sure. Tell me about it. See what I'm saying? It's a whole different thing than the pitch. Let me have the perfect words, the perfect pitch, the perfect case. That's important, but it's not as important as we think it is. What's important is releasing the outcome and listening. And so if you could just start doing that, let me know how that goes, because it's going to be so much better and you're going to have way more honest and meaningful conversations.
00:33:14 Maria: I have two stories or analogies that I want to share with you. So regarding release the outcome, I don't know if you've heard of this one where it's like the more sand that you try to hold in your hand by grasping it as tightly as possible, the less that you will actually be able to hold.
00:33:29 Maryanne: Oh, that's cool. Right?
00:33:33 Maria: So like holding onto control and it's the same as being relaxed and being eased. And the more that you try to grasp that control or the outcome, the more that it kind of slips through your hands. And I always really enjoy that.
00:33:46 Maryanne: I love that. Like that grip. You know, yes. Uh-huh.
00:33:50 Maria: And then this other one related to listening. My partner always tells a story. Basically it's this guy, he's buying a car. The salesman just goes up to him and says, we have the fanciest car. We have a red one. We have a blue one. We have the newest model, blah, blah, blah. And the guy's not interested because he is looking for a different kind of car. This guy's trying to figure out what kind of car, what kind of car, what kind of car, and then another salesman approaches and is like, what kind of car are you looking for?
00:34:17 Maria: It's like, well, it's actually not for me. It's for my daughter. I need something that's very safe and not too flashy. It's her first car. So just having that opportunity to ask a question and to listen just gives you the opportunity to close the sale in a way that fits both of your needs.
00:34:35 Maryanne: Exactly. There's a win-win.
00:34:37 Maria: Yes, win-win. Instead of just trying to go up to them and be like, here's 11 ways my nonprofit helps. Here's a lot full of cars that you can have. It's just about starting with a question and finding out their why.
00:34:50 Maryanne: And I asked the question, what would it look like if everybody got what they needed? What would that look like? I have an analogy too. So I'm obsessed with this thing on TikTok called second date update. So people had a first date and they didn't get a second date and they called a radio station and then the DJs called a person who ghosted them. And so the first person invariably is like this. Oh, how was the date? Oh my God. It was amazing. It was wonderful. Can you think of anything that went bad or wrong? And they're like, no, it was amazing. Like the person was so great.
00:35:22 Maryanne: And then they get the other person on and they say, hey, do you remember going out with this person? Yes, I do. Like tell us about that. Oh my God, it was awful. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They're on the same date, but they're having completely different experiences. And I thought a lot about like, why is this? Like this one woman, oh, we went. Guy was like, we did pot pot and ice cream. And they're like, oh, that's lovely and he was like yeah it was great and this woman comes on she's like yeah he was fine but he doesn't wear shoes. He didn't wear shoes all the time.
00:35:53 Maria: No. What?
00:35:54 Maryanne: And the dj said well if what if you took her out again but this time you wore shoes we'd pay for he goes... I didn't say I was gonna wear shoes.
00:36:07 Maria: That's much needed contacts on your dating profile.
00:36:08 Maryanne: They're leaving out the context because the reason I bring this up is because they're only looking for the information that serves their agenda. Because their agenda is to get another date. They're not seeing the cues, they're not listening. I think oftentimes when we relate to people, especially donors, we are having these parallel experiences. We're only really hearing what we want from people. We're dismissing or ignoring the story so that we can create the narrative we want that this person may be interested.
00:36:35 Maryanne: And the work that I do like influence the energy of choice is I can see you for who you are because I've released the outcome, I don't need anything. And so I can see you for who you are because a lot of times it was like, well, they were interested and then you have a meeting or you have a call and you get ghosted and you don't know why. And I think a second date update, like what weren't you absorbing because you were really focused on what you wanted.
00:37:03 Maryanne: And the other thing about releasing the outcome that I didn't mention before is when you release the outcome, there's so many more possibilities that emerge that you maybe haven't even thought of because now you're not looking for one specific thing. Like I'm going to do a gift and maybe that person wants to talk about an annuity or something so amazing that you never even thought of it. Now you're driving the agenda and they're, oh, okay. And so there's a lot more possibilities that open up because you're open to what people are saying. And you're really seeing them for who you are, who they are, not who you want them to be.
00:37:34 Maria: I love that. I love all of that.
00:37:36 Maryanne: Yay, I'm glad.
00:37:38 Maria: Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. I'm sure everybody will have so many thoughts and so many things in their mind going on right now. So don't worry listeners, me too. But Maryanne, where can people find you if they want to continue the conversation?
00:37:55 Maryanne: Yeah. So my website is courageouscommunication.com. And I think I gave you a link to my Upload Your Influence Starter Kit. I have a couple of goodies in there that really can help you start to understand how to harness and grow your own natural influence. And once you download that, you'll be on my email list and I do free training every month. So if you'd like to learn more from me, I would love to share because I do really feel like this is kind of a missing piece in our industry sometimes. The mental emotional work of really helping people process all of the things that they need to learn in order just to be able to ask for and receive what they want.
00:38:40 Maria: That's very true. Thank you again for being on our show today.
00:38:44 Maryanne: Thank you for having me. This was wonderful. And I love your analogies. I'm going to take the sand one if that's okay. And the car one too.
00:38:53 Maria: They're both really good. And I always come back to it because I'm definitely a person who is usually very attached to the outcome. Like I am a planner, I'm a gold personality type. So it's like, okay, I have a plan for each outcome, which is not healthy.
00:39:09 Maryanne: And I want to hold space for two things to be true at the same time. One, I can have a plan and really want something and I'm okay either way. I allow the gifts to come to me any way they want. So it's like, you may have a plan for here's how I want to, because we all like, oh, I'm going to get this much from this and this much from this, because it's going to come to you the way it's going to come to you. We can't control who or when. That's the biggest lie that we tell ourselves is, oh, we're gonna make these plans and that's how going to make somebody do something. We can only control what we do. So yes, I'm not saying don't plan. I'm not saying don't have goals. I'm saying I have goals, I have plans. And also I'm okay either way.
00:39:45 Maria: Thank you for everyone for tuning in for this episode of The Small Nonprofit. If you would like to see our pretty faces and Maryanne's whole entire purple life, check us out on YouTube, that will also be linked in the show notes along with all the links that we chatted about. Until next time, bye for now!
00:40:11 Maria: Thank you for listening to another episode of The Small Nonprofit. If you want to continue the conversation, feel free to connect with our guests directly or find me on LinkedIn. Let's keep moving money to mission and prioritizing our well-being. Bye for now.
Links and Resources:
Connect with Maryanne Dersch on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/maryannedersch-courageouscommunication/
Check out the Website: https://www.courageouscommunication.com/
Connect with Maria on LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mariario/
Support the show: https://www.buzzsprout.com/208666/supporters/new
