DEI in practice: Going beyond a statement with Michelle Okere
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Does making your nonprofit feel inclusive seem impossible? Today, we're getting real about diversity, equity, and inclusion in our sector. I spoke with Michelle Okere, an inclusion specialist and nonprofit powerhouse, about how to build anti-racism into your organization's core.
Michelle shared her own experiences facing systemic barriers, strategies for meaningful communication, and why empowering your frontline staff is the key to success. An accomplished leader with a strong commitment to community, Michelle's insights will help you take actionable steps toward a more inclusive workplace.
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Key Episode Highlights:
It starts with communication. One of the biggest obstacles to inclusion is staff, volunteers, and service users not feeling heard, understood, or involved at every level of decision-making.
Meaningful land acknowledgments can be a step toward action. Don't just rattle off a stock statement. Michelle shares how to make them a bridge for deeper conversation, relationship-building, and systemic change.
Fear stops progress. We talked a lot about the fear many well-intentioned folks have of "saying the wrong thing" when it comes to building inclusion. Michelle helps us break that barrier down and just start the conversation.
Inclusion isn't optional, it's foundational. We can't make those big promises of supporting marginalized communities, and then fail to build inclusive structures, policies, and practices into every aspect of the organization.
Don’t forget to become a supporter of our show!
Watch this episode on Youtube: https://youtu.be/_8Av-EH2nY4
Links and Resources:
Michelle Okere (Linkedin): https://www.linkedin.com/in/michelle-okere/
Michelle Okere (Twitter): @michelle0kere
Okere & Associates (Website): https://www.okereandassociates.com/
Compassion House Foundation: https://compassionhouse.org/
Sustainable Style Company: https://sustainablestylecompany.com/
Connect with Maria on LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mariario/
Support the show: https://www.buzzsprout.com/208666/supporters/new
Transcript:
00:00:00 Michelle: The number one thing I see, the pushback I see when I do equity audits in organizations, it's actually around communication. It's not around your policies or your processes or, I guess communication is kind of part of a process, but you know what I mean? It's not those like larger procedural things. It's actually, I want to be included in the discussion and understand how decisions are made that impact my job on the front lines.
00:00:26 Michelle: I want to be able to give feedback when decisions are made by management that negatively impact my experience on the front lines or with those that I serve. I wanna understand how I can move up in the organization, how are decisions made around hiring or who gets professional development opportunities, mentorship opportunities to, like I said, rise up in the organization. That's actually what people are looking for. That's where the disconnect happens and people start to be really unhappy in organizations.
00:00:56 Maria: Hi, friends. Ever wondered how you could turn your big ideas into results? I'm Maria Rio, your go-to guide for helping small nonprofits have real world impacts. Together, let's reimagine a better sector, tackle systemic issues, and yes, raise some serious cash. Welcome back to The Small Nonprofit, the podcast where your passion meets action.
00:01:27 Maria: Hi friends, welcome back to the Small Nonprofit Podcast. Today I have an amazing guest for you today. It's kind of hard not to fangirl over Michelle, but I'm sure you're all gonna love her as much as I do. Michelle is joining us all the way from Edmonton, Alberta. And Michelle, if you could just introduce yourself to our audience, tell them what you do, why you do it, and all the good things about you.
00:01:51 Michelle: Sure. Thank you so much for the warm welcome. I'm excited to be here today. Yeah, I'm Michelle Okere. I've spent my entire career in the not-for-profit sector, left my CEO role just over a year ago to be out on my own in my consulting practice where I focus primarily on organizational strategy but really embedding reconciliation, equity, diversity, inclusion and that work. I'm just super passionate about it.
00:02:14 Michelle: Again, having spent my entire career in the sector, having a lot of lived experience relying on non-profits that work in this space. And actually also being the co-founder of another nonprofit that specifically focuses on financial literacy for BIPOC use. It's just... it made sense for me and I'm really enjoying the time that I'm having working with organizations across North America.
00:02:34 Maria: That was like the most humble version of your intro that I could have heard. Yeah. You're like a total badass. You do everything. And I'm really thankful to have your time today because I think your expertise will be really important to share with nonprofits today. But maybe we could jump a little bit into why you started working in nonprofit. And you mentioned a little bit of lived experience. So if you're happy to share that with our audience, I think that would also illustrate where you're coming from that they can speak to it in a meaningful way. And that it doesn't fall apart the first time someone says, hey, how come you guys do that? And they just go, oh, no, my boss told me I had to. That doesn't work.
00:03:02 Michelle: Yeah, absolutely. So I grew up in rural and remote areas of Saskatchewan. For background, my dad is Cree, so I am Indigenous. We were often placed on reserve because my dad was an RCMP officer. And so they were recruiting to have indigenous representation in the eighties. My dad got on that way. And we were often placed in, again, very rural and remote communities. So not a lot of access to services. You really saw the disparities between urban communities and specifically reserves in the lack of access to things like healthy food, reasonably affordable things like milk and, and real critical things in community, but then lack of access to health care, social services, wraparound supports.
00:03:46 Michelle: It was just like you saw everything and I think as a kid I didn't realize until we moved into a city which was in high school for me and actually my parents had split up by that time. My mom actually spent my entire childhood on social assistance. We always struggled in that way. I played sports, do things like kids sport and being able to access the necessary equipment and pay my registration fees. And we often struggled with food security. So there weren't many times that we had, you know, a school trip coming up that my principal would call and say, do you need a lunch for tomorrow? So I was just very fortunate in a lot of ways to be in those smaller communities where people knew you.
00:04:21 Michelle: And I think community kind of stepped up in different ways, but we didn't always have access to some of those other supports. My mom actually left when I was 14. She went to Mexico, met a man and decided she was not coming back which as you can imagine was pretty traumatizing for me at 14. And so I ended up moving in with my dad. And so I went to high school in North Battleford, which is, you know, it seemed like a city to somebody who is from communities of three or 400 people. But I guess comparatively, I think it's like 20,000 people. It isn't, but it felt like a big move for me.
00:04:54 Michelle: And again, just even being there, having access to something like a family doctor, having access to after school programs and some of the different things that I'd never seen before. It really opened my eyes to those disparities. And I got involved actually early in high school, volunteering with not-for-profit organizations. And I did that all through university. I worked full-time through university. I was the first in my family to go to post-secondary. So I didn't have a roadmap. I didn't have some of the connections and clarity and what the opportunities for me were.
00:05:24 Michelle: And I didn't go to school expecting to end up in the not-for-profit space. In fact, I had no idea what I was going to do. I often laugh about it, because I'm on the university developer at a Senate now, and I tell people, it was actually the end of my third year, that someone from the student advisor office called me and said, "Hey Michelle, you need to pick a major." And I was like, "Oh, do I?" I thought if I just went to school for four years, you guys would give me a degree, because I didn't know, right?
00:05:47 Michelle: And I think so many of us are in those positions where we just don't know, because we haven't seen others in our family or in our communities be there before. And so yeah, when I got out of university with my political science and history degree, which I ended up choosing to focus on. I had no idea what I was going to do. And I took a year off and I got into the not-for-profit sector before I was planning on going back and doing a master's. And I just fell in love with it. I ended up working at a community foundation where I got to really see the impact of so many different organizations' work.
00:06:21 Michelle: It was our job to grant those funds out and tell those stories. And I got to do tours of organizations that were just having such incredible impact on those that they served. And I completely fell in love with it. And then I was in my early 20s and bright-eyed and bushy-tailed and thinking, "Okay, well, if I'm going to do this, I should probably run one of these things," right?
00:06:44 Michelle: And so, filled with naiveté and unearned confidence, I started reaching out to executive directors and CEOs and VPs of big organizations across the country on LinkedIn and said, "Hey, do you have 15, 20 minutes for me so I can pick your brain. I want to be where you are one day." And of course, being young, people want to see you succeed. And so every single person said yes. And I just got to listen to these people who had these very full careers with so much experience and so much impact in the communities that they served.
00:07:20 Michelle: And they gave me the roadmap. They said, you know, I was working more in communications and community engagement at the time. They said, get into fundraising, focus on major gifts, get involved with your local AFP chapter, work towards your CFRE, and you'll be on the right track. And I said, okay. And I did. I followed that roadmap. And at 29, I was named CEO to a charitable foundation here in Edmonton. And I had the luxury of leading a team there for several years. So...
00:07:47 Michelle: Don't be afraid to ask for help. I think that's honestly like the biggest thing I tell people all the time is if you want something, there are so many people who have been down that road before and don't be afraid to ask for their wisdom and guidance.
00:08:02 Maria: That's so fantastic. Yes, yes. I love everything that you said. And I love that people were so open to just sharing that wisdom with you as a young person because getting into the sector is so hard. You have to learn everything yourself and just to have someone to tell you like, "Oh, that's the right thing, that's the wrong thing." I'm sure was super, super helpful. So what do you do now exactly? Do you mostly still focus on fundraising or do you do executive leadership? What do you bring to the table currently?
00:08:32 Michelle: Yeah, so I'll be honest. I mean, I've had my consulting practice for seven years and initially I really focused more on the fundraising. I'm a certified fundraising executive. That's kind of how I came up through the space. And public relations, that was really my wheelhouse. And several years ago, I kind of started to make that pivot. I really was looking at, you know, even in the work I was doing around public relations and fundraising, I was really bringing more of that kind of ethical approach to it, how are we ensuring that we're empowering voices rather than really exploiting people, which I unfortunately think happens too often in the not-for-profit sector.
00:09:09 Michelle: Yeah, just bringing a different lens to the work I was doing. And when I went on my own fully, I was doing a lot of different things. And I think a lot of us do that because you're terrified of how you're going to bring in money. And so I was kind of taking everything from fundraising strategy to writing grants to organizational strategy, EDI audits, all of it. And I finally got to the point where I was like, "Okay, I'm doing too many things, I'm overwhelmed." You're changing your brain from one thing to another constantly. You can't actually create anything that's scalable.
00:09:43 Michelle: And there's a lot more to it than just making money. But I think if you get super hyper-focused and niche in the work that you're doing, people know that you're the person to go to for that. And you actually end up building a brand and reputation and are able to earn more funds that way as well. So I decided to get really hyper focused on organizational strategy. Strategy is the thing that I love. And so, but really ensuring that I'm keeping that kind of equity lens in the work that I do.
00:10:10 Michelle: So, I'm really focused on working with both nonprofits, but I do work with for-profit organizations as well on their organizational strategies, but then really embedding equity, diversity, inclusion and reconciliation in that, as well as helping organizations kind of connect with and facilitate relationships with Indigenous communities, because I think that's really important. And unfortunately, something that's been overlooked for a really long time, especially in the not-for-profit sector, that serves largely Indigenous peoples, unfortunately.
00:10:42 Michelle: And so not having that cultural competency, not having a relationship with the nations, that connection and understanding of culture, I think is just so... such a missed opportunity that I do think, you know, the 2021 uncovering of the unmarked graves at residential schools was a big turning point in Canada. And it really forced us to have a national conversation around reconciliation and what we were going to do moving forward. And so I think in many ways that wake up call has been good for the sector, but there's still a lot of work that needs to be done.
00:11:15 Maria: And do you see organizations like starting to do that work? I've seen a lot of performative stuff, right? People just mumbling through a land acknowledgement once a year through their AGM, something like that. Have you seen a lot of organizations like Tackle, Reconciliation, EDI in a more meaningful, sustainable way or not? And if so, what has that looked like?
00:11:37 Michelle: I think one of the big things that I found, especially as I started getting more and more clients outside of Western Canada, was that people would be surprised to find Western Canada is really leading the way when it comes to a lot of this work. And I think a lot of people look to the West and especially Alberta, where I live and think, "Oh, you know, it's a bunch of cowboys and hillbillies and it's so backwards, such a conservative province." And they're not doing it right. But it's really not true. Like I see such leadership in this space, specifically in Edmonton, but throughout the province. And I'm actually doing my executive MBA in Indigenous Business Leadership in BC right now.
00:12:17 Michelle: So through the BD School of Business at Simon Fraser, and seeing some of the things that are happening out there is just so incredible. But I do think, you know, some of what I've seen is that it just doesn't seem as top of mind in central Canada. So like in Ontario and Quebec, specifically with some of the groups I've worked with there, I've just been surprised that it feels like me bringing it forward as we're having conversations around DI is the first time it's been brought forward.
00:12:44 Michelle: So even some of the more, you know, what you might consider performative of like a land acknowledgement, I think a land acknowledgement can be meaningful. I think it can be engaging. I think it can be a step towards reconciliation. I agree if it's a three sentence stock version that you've pulled from your city's website and are just reading off, that's not it. So I do have kind of a three step system on how to make those meaningful and actually putting the work in and creating a shared understanding.
00:13:10 Michelle: But even that like suggesting that they have something on their website in their signatures that they work on those and include them in their board meetings and HMS and things like that. It's the first time someone's even suggested it, which I've been really surprised to find. And I don't know if there's a bit of like challenges around proximity. I think in Western Canada, there's reserves. I mean, there's urban reserves, there's reserves really close by. Large indigenous populations within communities. And so I don't know if that's part of the disconnect in Ontario specifically, but I've just found that that work hasn't really been done in a meaningful way yet.
00:13:53 Michelle: And that's not a call out. I think there's opportunity there. And I think it's a lot of people just not knowing. You know, I talked to a lot of people, especially in the sector who were well-meaning, they want to do it, but there's so much fear of doing the wrong thing, of saying the wrong thing because I think Indigenous people have been othered in such ways in contemporary media, there's this fear of, I don't even know how to talk to them, right? It's like they're over here, we're over here, and we don't know how to make that connection. And it's like, we're all people, you know? It's the same way that you would connect with anyone. It's about building trustful and meaningful relationships. So it's just taking that first step.
00:14:35 Michelle: But I think for a lot of people, it's intimidating. And so what I try and do is work with them to break some of those barriers down and help facilitate some of those discussions and introductions, because I think once those relationships are built, once you've been able to connect, you can start to really infuse that into the work that you do every day. And I think, yeah, we really have to address some of the fear and othering that happens in a lot of this work.
00:15:00 Maria: Do you think some of this stems from not having indigenous representation at a leadership or board level? Just because, you know, with some of the organizations that have worked with in the past, there definitely has not been any indigenous inclusion at all, like even when it comes to what should we do with our programming, X, Y, and Z. And also just the way that people have talked about getting that leadership voice in the room. It's been like, we failed to acquire an indigenous person again this year.
00:15:28 Maria: It is the most tokenizing, the one and only kind of vibes that I've gone in. So I don't know. I do see how important it is to have different voices at the table. We all see that. But it is a challenge when the voices currently there are just so white and so kind of lost in the sauce. They don't really understand. Have you faced that a lot with the reconciliation piece? Do people have that basic knowledge of understanding? Or are they just checking off a box when they're trying to move forward in these things.
00:16:01 Michelle: Yeah, I mean, I think representation matters, right? When you have representation, especially leadership circles, it changes the conversations that are had. And it also, again, it starts to break down some of those walls, the assumptions that people make about people from different cultures, all of those things. And that goes across the board, not just in indigenous communities, but throughout all underrepresented communities across Canada and beyond, right?
00:16:26 Michelle: So having people there that can bring that knowledge, that voice, that perspective to the table goes a long way. And I agree, it does need to be more than just, you know, a token. Okay, we've checked the box, we have our indigenous representation, or we have a representation from the Black community, because it's so diverse. People don't recognize that, right? And when you think about indigenous populations in Canada, there are so many different unique cultures, languages across our country.
00:16:56 Michelle: I'm Plains Cree. That is very different than the Coast Salish in BC, right? That's very different than multiple different cultures across our country. And so to just lump it in as like all Indigenous people are the same, that's not true. And so one Indigenous knowledge keeper, elder, in one community actually can't speak for others across our nation. And so having that diversity of representation even amongst groups is really important. And having that connection to different communities to be able to bring those unique perspectives to the table is really important as well.
00:17:30 Michelle: You know, I think about it in this way when I talk to people a lot is, you know, when, when you go to Europe, you don't expect Italy and France to be the same, right? You understand the distinction there. It might be in close proximity. They share a border, but they're not going to be the same. And yet you look in Canada and there's an assumption that all indigenous people are going to be the same. That's not the reality. And so I think we have to take more intentional approach into how we bring inclusion to the table there.
00:17:57 Michelle: When you talk about like that tokenizing or we can't find, you can't seem to find someone to take this, I've absolutely heard that around poor tables I've been at or for things like, oh well they just don't want to and not just in the Indigenous population but many underrepresented groups and they don't consider the fact that maybe it's the time of day that you host your meetings that's a challenge for people.
00:18:19 Michelle: People who recently immigrated to Canada might not work in jobs where they have the same kind of flexibility that you do to do a meeting from eight till noon. They have to be at work, right? Or if there's an expectation for evening events, well, if people have young children at home and they don't have some of the support here like grandma and grandpa to watch children, that might not be an option for them either, right?
00:18:41 Michelle: So looking at what are the barriers to inclusion that are there. And how do we remove those to make sure that there's actually room at the table and opportunity to contribute meaningfully for all of those folks that we'd like to have there? And then, again, if you have a really homogeneous group, chances are they're not able to tap into their networks in the same way. And a lot of times what I see when I work with boards is they might have a skills matrix. Most don't, but they might. They might have done the work to develop a skills matrix.
00:19:09 Michelle: But then what tends to happen around the time that you're recruiting is board members go and tap a friend. Right? Oh, I'm on this board. I think you'd be great for it. Let's get you in. And then you have more people who think the same. And so that can be really challenging as well. So really looking at what your recruitment process looks like, where are you sending out your job or your board recruitment postings? Who are you connecting with? Are there specific groups that you can get that in front of? There's so many different ways that you can tap into more diverse networks that I think that just requires a little bit more work, but it's worth doing.
00:19:48 Maria: What about like, for someone who wants to bring this to their organization, and maybe they're facing some issues, and not when I say bring this to the organization, I don't just mean reconciliation, but just like DI initiatives in general. Maybe the statement doesn't match your operations, or maybe it's something smaller like, hey, we should be using pronouns in our signatures. What is something that they can do to kind of bring that forward?
00:20:15 Michelle: Yeah, you know what? I actually have a story around this, specifically the pronouns and signatures piece. So when I was CEO of Compassion House Foundation, my communications manager actually did bring that forward. She said, we don't have our pronouns in our signatures and we also don't have a law and acknowledgement. And I think those are two things that we could do that would just help move things forward from an EDI lens.
00:20:37 Michelle: And I said, totally agree with you. However, if we just put our pronoun, if we just tell everyone you have to put your pronouns in your bio, and we throw a little acknowledgement there, but we haven't done the work as an organization, to me that's performative. And so if that's where we're going, and again, I'm supportive of that, we have to make sure that every single person in this organization understands why. That they're part of that process, that they've gotten appropriate training
00:21:14 Michelle: And so we took a really inclusive approach to this and we brought people in. So from the Institute for Sexual and Gender Minority Studies to do training for our staff, but also for our board to be able to really understand history around LGBTQIA+ rights and the work that they've had to do. We actually brought someone with lived experience to speak about their experience, being a transgender woman coming from rural Alberta, and just to share that knowledge and experience with our board and create that sense of empathy and understanding, because a lot of people might not know anyone in their communities that's trans, right, and so how do you address that?
00:21:55 Michelle: We want to break down some of those barriers and create a sense of understanding. And then we did a lot of work around Truth and Reconciliation training sessions. We did the Indigenous Canada course that was across the board, all of our staff did. We worked with Bent Arrow Traditional Healing Society to do a couple of things. We brought in elders, right? So we did the work first. We had those conversations, again, from the board all the way down to the frontline staff and everybody in between, to make sure there was consistency understanding that they could ask questions and that we were all on the same page.
00:22:30 Michelle: And then I actually didn't force it. I said, you know, this is why we do it and it's still your choice. If you choose not to, that's completely up to you. But I think when you mandate it, you also get pushback. Everyone adopted that. They could speak to it, they understood it. And we didn't put our organization at risk of a call out from doing something that was performative without doing the work. Which again, I think these things look nice, but if you haven't done the training, the education, if it's not really embedded in your culture as an organization, you actually are creating more risk for your organization than anything else.
00:23:08 Maria: Oh, I love how you mentioned the call out piece because I feel like a lot of people in the nonprofit space are currently thinking about that because usually if you make a statement of equity, like I'm sure you remember all the Black Lives Matter statements that came out a few years ago, that one is not a controversial statement, right? Everybody can accept that.
00:23:28 Maria: But when it comes to something like Palestine, Israel, people are finding that very hard to actually make a statement that aligns with their values. And it's hard because I don't feel like they know where their values lie. So I don't know if you have seen that as well when it comes to more, I don't wanna say controversial or divisive statements, but less of a, we can all agree on this one perspective.
00:23:52 Michelle: Yeah, I'm going to take this on two ways. One, I want to talk about the murder of George Floyd and the social justice activism that happened following that. Because when we want to talk about performative, I do think that a lot of those statements were. It was... we have 24 to 48 hours to get some sort of statement out. How do we, you know, get this creative writing assignment done and post this on Twitter? I will say I've worked with a lot of organizations that got that statement out quickly and then have done absolutely nothing in the last three years since that time.
00:24:26 Michelle: And so I've come into those organizations and that's all they have. They might've like, they threw a statement together or a quick policy and they haven't come back to it. And to me, I actually think that's extremely problematic. I think that there were a lot of brands that used it as an opportunity to capitalize financially. Nonprofits felt like we have to say something, but again, if the work's not being done internally, your commitment to racial equity and addressing systemic racism within organizations, it really falls a little bit flat for me. So I'm going to start there.
00:25:03 Michelle: The second thing is I actually don't think that it's every single organization's responsibility to get out with a public statement every time there's something happening. I do think that organizations should take the time to look at where do we speak out and why. What are our stances on that? Having really hard conversations internally and values-based conversations so that they know how. But is it every single organization across Canada, regardless of their mandate, to put out a public statement every time that there's something happening in the international space?
00:25:40 Michelle: And why Israel Palestine, but then ignoring when there's other things happening in other nations? I guess I just, I'm really struggling around some of that. And so certainly, if your organization specifically focuses on serving specific demographics or works in human rights and things like that, absolutely, that might be the time for you to get out and say something. But I don't know that it's necessarily the responsibility of every United Way or, you know, tiny organization that works in the shelter space necessarily to be out getting their public statements every time something happens.
00:26:20 Michelle: So I think that a lot of organizations put themselves at more risk by feeling like, we have to say something rather than cultivating conversations internally, creating an inclusive environment where people feel safe to bring their concerns forward, but ensuring that they're safety for all. And I think actually for a lot of post-secondary institutions are getting themselves into trouble right now, is it does feel like their sides being chosen, right? And so safety for certain groups, but not others.
00:26:52 Michelle: And when we talk about psychological safety as well as physical safety, because that's become a real issue as well, we can't have an uneven playing field. That's not what equity, diversity, and inclusion is supposed to be about. And I think that that's where it's become more about power dynamics than it has been about actually creating equity in our society. And I do think that's where some of this movement is going to come up against some real resistance and it has.
00:27:20 Michelle: So I just, I do encourage people to really make sure that they're checking their values, that they're ensuring that this is in line with what we would like to see our society become and not becoming so focused on calling people out or taking opportunities to grab power at the expense of others because that's what we've been complaining about has happened the other way, right? And so that's not equity to me.
00:27:43 Michelle: So I just, I've had to have some really hard conversations with folks recently. And it's hard obviously to get into on a podcast, but I do think we have to just take a step back, maybe bring the temperature in the room down a little bit and really ask ourselves if we're creating a better society or at times the worst one.
00:28:04 Maria: I think it's really interesting to see this time where people you'll compelled to make statements similarly to Black Lives Matter, because it's like, what did we learn from when our organizations made statements then? What did they implement? What did they actually do? And what are we bringing forward this time if your organization is making a statement or if they're not? It's just very interesting to see how much we say we value DI inclusion, X, Y, and Z, and how much work is actually being put towards that internally and externally.
00:28:36 Maria: Thinking about moving forward, do you see more like smaller organizations being able to implement diversity, equity and inclusion values easier than larger ones? There's less resistance or how does that look like?
00:28:50 Michelle: Yeah, I think the inclusion and belonging side, which I actually think is probably the most important, I think if you can get things right in your culture, we can policy and process things to death, but quite honestly, if the culture doesn't follow, it just becomes a tool for HR to utilize or whatever, right? It's not actually that helpful. So to me, if we can get things right on the inclusion and belonging side of things, we're gonna be a lot more successful in moving these things forward.
00:29:16 Michelle: I think smaller organizations have a much better opportunity because the number one thing I see, the pushback I see when I do equity audits in organizations, it's actually around communication. It's not around your policies or your processes or I guess communication is kind of part of a process. But you know what I mean? It's not those larger procedural things. Actually, I want to be included in the discussion and understand how decisions are made that impact my job on the front lines.
00:29:47 Michelle: I want to be able to give feedback when decisions are made by management that negatively impact my experience on the front lines or with those that I serve. I want to understand how I can move up in the organization. How are decisions made around hiring or who gets professional development opportunities, mentorship opportunities to, like I said, rise up in the organization. That's actually what people are looking for. That's where the disconnect happens and people start to be really unhappy in organizations.
00:30:16 Michelle: I wanna know my coworkers better. That was a big one I saw when I was doing equity audits, especially through the pandemic when people were working remotely or hybrid or across different locations. Those are the things that people are really yearning from when you think about inclusion and belonging. And those are actually the easiest things to address. It's just better communication from management. And those are actually far easier to address in smaller organizations.
00:30:43 Michelle: If you have 20 people on your team, that's a lot easier to deal with than if you have 200 or 2,000. When you start to get to these really large organizations, it's hard to communicate. It's hard for management to have a direct relationship with everyone on the team. For me at Compassion House, I had 20 people, 22 at max at one time. It was really easy for me to know everyone by name, to know when their birthdays were, to know what was important to them, their kids, the holidays.
00:31:08 Michelle: If they celebrated Christmas or a different holiday and how we could adjust our processes to ensure that they got that time off, that was meaningful to them. Like I said, it gets a lot harder in larger organizations, and that's where, you know, you tend to have a lot more focus on policies, procedures, org charts, right? You know, going through the appropriate chain of command. And so yeah, I do think in what I've seen in the organizations I've worked with, and I love working with smaller organizations, that's my passion, that's kind of where I've always been, because they can be nimble and responsive and they can make change happen really quick. It doesn't mean large organizations are lost in this, it requires a different approach.
00:31:50 Michelle: And it requires management, honestly, getting out of their offices and spending more time with folks. I know in the not-for-profit space that we are so under-resourced and overworked. And it's easy to think that this donor call or this board meeting or this whatever it might be is more important than our team, but it's not. And so we have to make that time to really connect with the people on our team.
00:32:16 Michelle: And the results, I think, speak for themselves. We know that inclusive and diverse teams perform better. You're gonna get those innovative solutions. You're going to think about things differently. You're gonna have a better sense of the needs of those that you serve. And you're also gonna do a better job of retaining your staff and spending less time in this cycle of recruitment and training. And so I do think if we just kind of modify the way that we work, especially as leaders, that we can have so much better outcomes.
00:32:48 Maria: Based on that, have you seen a lot of exploration around different forms of governance? So for example, I've seen co-EDs or three EDs working together at one organization, but I haven't seen more interesting ones. So more of a flatter hierarchy with the board and the ED, for example. I don't know if you have explored any of those yet.
00:33:11 Michelle: I mean, I can speak to more of my process around strap finding, which I think is different than what you generally see in the not-for-profit space. And it's far more collaborative. So it's not necessarily that it's a flat organization, but it's a lot more inclusive process. And so I've taken this approach probably for the last three or four years in working with organizations. And it is that strategy is looked at as a process rather than an event, I'm sure that you've seen in the not for profit space, there's a board retreat or a one day off site. And it's usually the board and the executive director, CEO, go away.
00:33:48 Michelle: And they come out of that after a facilitated discussion with an external consultant with a strap on. And you're like, how do you do that in a day? Right? Like that doesn't even make sense to me. And how did you include the people who actually work in the business? Right? And so my approach is much different. We include the board, but it's actually driven by management and the team.
00:34:09 Michelle: So we might include the board on the front end, host a kickoff session, do a bit of an environmental scan, maybe involve them in something like a pastel, which looks at the external environment. And then management comes away and they work with their team and doing the rest of that work. And so we work on it usually over three to six months. We have regular sessions and exploration, and we involve, like I said, management, so your executive director, senior leadership, but also other members of the team and maybe external stakeholders as well in that process.
00:34:42 Michelle: So that they feel like they were truly included in the process, their voices were heard, they see that in the final product, and they actually get to have really meaningful discussions around things like values and what their values actually mean for the organization and how they act as guardrails for the organization and themselves and how they behave and how they show up and how they hold each other accountable.
00:35:04 Michelle: And so when we come out of that with a strategic plan to take to the board, it's usually 80% to 90% done. We take it to the board. We can say wholeheartedly, the entire team was part of this process. They believe in this. They've had input in this. They are excited about this vision and where we're going over the next three to five years. And of course, the board is still going to be able to put calls in it. Maybe there's risks or opportunities that haven't been considered.
00:35:32 Michelle: We'll come away, we'll edit it again with their feedback, and then we'll bring it back for final approval. And I've never, ever, ever had it need to go back to the board more than once, which is incredible because of the way that it's such an inclusive process along the way. And then when you go to build your operational plan with your team, they understand how the work that you're doing that year directly aligns with your strategic plan.
00:35:57 Michelle: They understand how the work that they're doing in their departments directly helps move the organization forward to that larger vision. And I think that is an example of how you can flatten and include everyone in processes and get them more excited and engaged in the work that they're doing. Because too often those who are on the front lines feel so disconnected from some of those larger pieces. And they're just grinding it out every day. And it's hard. It's hard work that we do in this sector.
00:36:27 Michelle: And so I think when you get that buy-in, that excitement, and that understanding about where the organization's going and the problem that you're working to solve, people show up differently. And that's what inclusion and belonging actually is.
00:36:40 Maria: I love all of that. That was perfect. Yes. No, I totally agree. Why are we not including staff as much as possible? And by doing so, you get their buy-in, you get their... they have some skin in the game. They are willing to go and fight for that. And I think that's so important. And also they have the best perspective out of anyone in the organization to be giving input and providing insight on what should be happening in the next three to five years.
00:37:10 Maria: Also the retention piece is huge, cannot be understated. Michelle, thank you so much for your time. You're amazing. I know that we could have chatted about a hundred different things. I'm sure people will wanna follow up and check out your work. Where can they do so?
00:37:25 Michelle: I am on Twitter at Michelle O, like Zero, kere, K-E-R-E. I'm also on Instagram there if you're interested, but that's a whole different focus of my life. LinkedIn, Michelle Okere, Okere and Associates, so W-W-W, oh my gosh, how many W's did I give there? www.okereandassociates.com. And if you're interested, I also have a sustainable retail brand called Sustainable Style Company. So you can check that out too. Little plug.
00:37:57 Maria: I want to add that to the show notes too, because I thought that was really cool. Okay. Well, thank you so much, Michelle, for joining us today. And thank you all for joining us for this episode of the Small Nonprofit Podcast. I know that I definitely learned a lot from this conversation and I hope that you all had really great takeaways. We will also be linking the YouTube video in the show notes, so if you wanna see our lovely faces, you can do so there. But until next time, bye for now.
00:38:28 Maria: Thank you for listening to another episode of The Small Nonprofit. If you want to continue the conversation, feel free to connect with our guests directly or find me on LinkedIn. Let's keep moving money to mission and prioritizing our well-being. Bye for now.
