Who is “Accountable” to Whom? with Liz LeClair
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Scandals, harmful practices, and image-obsessed leaders plague our sector, but it doesn't have to be this way. My candid chat with Liz LeClair, a fearless fundraiser, feminist, and disruptor, is a breath of fresh air.
We discuss the lack of accountability in our sector, why real change is hard, and how we MUST do better. Liz calls out the sector (and herself!) for past failings. We discuss boardroom complacency, centering BIPOC voices, and why white moderates need a rethink.
This episode might leave you uncomfortable – and that's the point. Let's demand a truly accountable nonprofit world.
Don’t forget to become a supporter of our show!
Key Episode Highlights:
Silence breeds more harm: Liz's courageous decision to speak out against sexual harassment by a high-profile donor sparked a much-needed conversation about the pervasive power imbalances and toxic culture in our sector.
White moderates hold us back: The desire to stay neutral or avoid difficult conversations is ultimately complicity. To move forward, we (especially white people) must actively dismantle oppressive systems and listen to those most impacted.
Accountability isn't about punishment: It's about building transparent, supportive, and safe environments where everyone is held to the same expectations. Leaders, board members, and donors are not exempt!
Community is key for support and learning: Liz's transformation came from connecting with BIPOC leaders who modeled true allyship and how to fight for justice while maintaining community care.
This IS your fight too: Even if you haven't faced the same issues directly, creating a more equitable sector where everyone can thrive benefits us all. This isn't about charity, it's about justice.
Don’t forget to become a supporter of our show!
Watch this episode on Youtube: https://youtu.be/eVCH1_lgviQ
Links and Resources:
Connect with Liz on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/liz-leclair/
Connect with Maria on LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mariario/
Support the show: https://www.buzzsprout.com/208666/supporters/new
Transcript:
00:0000 Liz: When a woman comes forward and says she's been raped or harassed or whatever, we believe you first. We believe you because it is extraordinarily difficult for a victim to come forward after the trauma that they've endured. There is no public or personal benefit to being a whistleblower. None. So we believe you. And then when Black people tell you that there has been racism and discrimination against them, you believe them. Because I'll tell you what, as a white person, I don't get to decide what's racist and what's not racist.
00:38 Maria: Hi friends. Ever wondered how you could turn your big ideas into results? I'm Maria Rio, your go-to guide for helping small nonprofits have real world impacts. Together, let's reimagine a better sector, tackle systemic issues, and yes, raise some serious cash. Welcome back to The Small Nonprofit, the podcast where your passion meets action.
00:01:10 Maria: Hi friends, welcome back to the Small Nonprofit Podcast. I'm your host Maria Rio. And today I'm joined by a guest that I'm super excited to have on here because she's someone that I've definitely looked up to in a lot of different ways, being an outspoken person in the field and trying to affect change in many different ways. So I'd love to introduce you to Liz LeClair. If you do not know her already, this is a name that you're definitely gonna be familiar with. All the way from Nova Scotia. She's here to chat with us today. Liz, I would love for you to say hi, introduce yourself.
00:01:47 Liz: Yeah, hi, Liz LeClair. I am a fundraiser advocate. I like to call myself an intersectional feminist. I hope I live by those values and I am based in Halifax, Nova Scotia and I'm really thrilled to be here with you today. Thank you for inviting me.
00:02:06 Maria: I'm really happy to have you here and have this conversation. For people who might not be familiar with you, which, sad life, how would you describe your career journey so far and what you do?
00:01:47 Liz: I guess for those that are listening on audio, I am a middle-aged white woman. And much like most of the sector, I, you know, quite a prolifically large group of middle-aged white women or white women in general that work in the nonprofit sector because most of us fell into it and had the privilege to be able to choose this as our focus in our life. I grew up in Toronto, actually in Scarborough. So shout out to the East side of Toronto. And I sort of really had this big goal in my life. I had a really firm belief in, oh gosh, I always tell people I was like the Leslie Knope of my high school, you know, like the Model UN club. Really nerdy, loved Model UN, loved international politics. I followed politics, I still do quite prolifically. And yeah, I just thought I was going to go work at the United Nations and that was going to be my big thing. I was going to go save the world.
00:03:30 Liz: You know, living in that bubble that you live in while you're growing up white and privileged in the suburbs, you just don't realize so much of what you're surrounded by is this fake facade of sort of what the world is. And I was in university doing my master's degree after my political science degree, and I ended up getting an internship with the World Food Programme and found out really quickly in kind of the hard way. A, how little I actually knew about international development, international aid. And then B, that I really didn't like doing public relations or international relations. What I really loved was I ended up doing the walk to end hunger and discovered I had a passion for seeing sort of the immediate impact of my work on the ground. And I kind of got hooked and that was it ever since.
00:04:26 Maria: You're totally right. So many of us fall into this profession, but it does come with good intentions and then how to use those good intentions to get more informed and to actually affect change. And I think that's something that our sector doesn't do so well, hold itself accountable, reflect on how we're actually using those good intentions and if we're having the effect that we want to have. So I'd love to talk about what accountability in the nonprofit sector looks like? I don't know if there's any initial thoughts that come up for you when it comes to accountability and nonprofit in the same sentence.
00:05:06 Liz: Yeah, it's a really good question. I don't think we, I would agree with you. I don't think we do a good job. I think the nonprofit charitable sector are really bad at two things. One is, what do you call it? Reflection and introspection on what our role is and causing further harm. And the other is taking accountability for it and apologizing in a genuine way. And I think Fleur Larsen and Michelle Muri are really good. Fleur Larsen is a consultant out of the West Coast in Seattle, and she has a workshop on white women in fundraising and white women and sort of just the nonprofit sector in general. And one thing she talks about is our fragility that we come with in our sense of martyrdom.
00:05:51 Liz: And I do think that because our sector is sort of set up the way it is, that it is quite a toxic and my husband's in the Navy, he calls it a self-licking ice cream cone, which is, I know most people have that phase when I tell them that. A self-licking ice cream cone is like a project or a sector or something where it's set up to feed itself. And I think that, you know, people are really scared. In particular, I think a lot of consultants for quite a while when the community-centric movement came about, Black Lives Matter started, and a lot of those things is like, well, if we change the way that we've been doing what we've been doing, then we're not going to raise money.
00:06:40 Liz: And I think, yeah, so we're not good at reflecting on the harm that we cause, and I still see a ton of pushback. So I think, yeah. I don't know if I'm answering your question very well, but I just, it's the one thing. I think our instant reaction, knee jerk reaction, is to be defensive, but then we don't seem to move past that as a sector. I can see people moving past it, but I just can't see our sector seeming to make any strides in regards to that.
00:07:07 Liz: But yeah, I do think that we're an extremely reactive and defensive sector, which I think the more you learn about white dominant culture and white supremacist culture is really kind of a reflection of like this idea that you can't be wrong because you're doing good work. That's where the martyrdom comes in. And I think an inability to reflect on that certainly prohibits us, I think, from evolving as a sector and moving into a much more collaborative, supportive space.
00:07:39 Maria: I think when it comes to accountability, like the way that you're describing it is very externally focused. Right, like we're not very accountable to the missions that we claim to want to change. And there's just so much truth to that. So there's no accountability for our leadership. And what happens if you totally screw up your organization and crash and burn? There's no accountability for working together or sometimes even actually fulfilling grant obligations can not be held accountable.
00:08:18 Maria: So there's a lot of lack of true intention and true pushing towards what we say we care to do externally, but also internally. We don't have... we don't follow those practices internally either. Like even if our mission is, you know, the environment, we're using non-recyclable things in our workplaces and not really operationalizing our values and building that in our accountability.
00:08:47 Liz: I've been as guilty of it as anyone else. And I'm sure I still make those mistakes all the time. But I think some of it is a symptom of organizational, how organizations work, organizations, nonprofits included charities, no matter the size. What humans are really bad at doing is recognizing groupthink and how once you become part of a... and I have my fingers up, quotation, culture, that you start to become aligned with and move as a group, move together. Move kind of in any external threat or internal threat to that group dynamic or group culture becomes an existential threat to the organization, but also to the people who participate in it.
00:09:39 Liz: It takes a lot of courage and bravery to sit down and point out. Someone's saying something and yes, you know what? I think no matter how hard this might be for us, there's a grain of truth to this. Maybe it doesn't feel good at the time. It certainly can cause lack of cohesion in some ways, but I think the alternative to being opposed to criticism or constructive or otherwise is that we continue to perpetuate harm. It's a learning curve. I am on my own journey around this. I hold myself to a much higher standard than I even hold other people.
00:10:26 Liz: I know that's probably hard for some people to believe but it's difficult. We're constantly unpacking and unlearning. And I choose to spend my time with and surround myself now with people who can help me move through that discomfort. And I think, you know, part of this is just shifting who you're spending your time with and who you're listening to. How you're choosing to engage and hopefully spending a lot less time talking and more time listening.
00:10:59 Maria: Things were highlighting that group-think mentality. I've definitely been thinking about why are boards so incompetent and so horrible when individually that person is great and very competent and very smart. So what is happening in these environments? And I've been thinking it's something related to a mob mentality, bystander effect kind of situation rather than complete incompetence, but I'm not 100% sure. And it's hard to break out of those patterns when there are no systems of accountability and expectations of what people are supposed to be doing and who holds you to that. So I think by sender effect definitely plays a lot into that kind of leadership failing. What do you think is the role of the organization to kind of dismantle some of that, either at a leadership level or at a sector level?
00:11:58 Liz: Yeah, I mean, I completely agree with you. I think groupthink at a board level is... And also too, I think we have to look at the origins of how our boards, how we operate our boards here in Canada, the US and other places. They're very like Western European model, right? The model of we have X number of people that are overseeing one employee, that one employee is usually the CEO or executive director.
00:12:26 Liz: But that CEO and executive director more often than not exerts a lot of influence on who is recruited to the board and what information is filtered to that board. So I think fundamentally there is a huge problem. That part's a problem. I think that's what causes these issues to bubble up and then sort of explode because there is no feedback mechanism by which people can provide direct contact with board members.
00:12:55 Liz: And I do think that board members think that an arm's length is good. And to some degree, that's probably true. You don't want them involved in the operations, but I think there has to be a regular touch point or point of contact on a board if we're gonna keep it in that model in order for you to root out any kinds of issues or around transparency or harassment, bullying, racism, discrimination in our organization.
00:13:21 Liz: And then the other thing is, is I think that we need to fundamentally relook at the way we look at governance for nonprofits, because it's not working. And I think a lot of the issues we're facing are symptomatic of major bored, blindness or ignorance or willful ignorance, because they're volunteers. And while they might be competent in their line of work day to day, this may not be an area that they have any understanding of.
00:13:51 Liz: You know, I've sat on multiple boards and it's interesting every time I've ever raised a concern or question, the uncomfortableness in a room to address that concern or the need to sort of explain it away or not really dive into it in an effort to have a board meeting happen quickly or to move on to something is always fascinating. And I think that that's part of the problem for sure. I think it would be great to see a fundamental reshift of how we look at governance as a whole.
00:14:26 Liz: There's so many other ways that we could be doing this, but fundamentally the non-profit sector is still symptomatic of a colonial, very specific type of leadership model and leadership governance that I think the more and more we see people coming from other spaces, places, and communities, they're pushing back on it, and there's a reason for that.
00:14:53 Liz: It's a harmful practice.
00:14:56 Liz: Right. I think it's also why we lack a lot of diversity in our sector. So, I mean, those are just my thoughts on it, but yeah, I tend to agree with you. I think there's some need for us to rethink and reframe what this looks like in the future.
00:15:12 Maria: And you think those practices at a board level or leadership level tend to trickle or permeate other parts of the organization as of course they would. So when you're talking about the board recruitment, of course, but also the ED recruitment, recruitment in general, policies when it comes to harassment or where we take money from or don't take money from. I'd wonder if you'd be open to talking about the case that you're currently involved in when it comes to getting that accountability to have a safe workspace?
00:15:47 Liz: Yeah, I mean, I can talk about only sort of a certain amount of what's in my case as I'm in a civil suit right now. But I can talk more widely about what it's like to hold people accountable for sure. So back in 2018, I came forward and at the end of 2018, sort of around the time of the Me Too movement into early 2019 wrote my own op-ed in regards to sexual harassment in the charitable and nonprofit sector. And at first it was like, yes, a lot of women wrote me in particular, a lot of women leaders wrote me and were like, yes, absolutely, this is a problem, we have to deal with it.
00:16:32 Liz: And I was like, wow, this is great, we're going to have our big transformative moment in our sector. Woo. Like, you know, so naive. I looked back on myself five, six years ago and I'm like, oh, you. I do everything by the school of hard knocks though, it's not really surprising. And, you know, but then I started being like, okay, well, if that's the case, then I'm going to tell people who this individual is and I'm going to tell them that they need to stop working with him and that he's, to me, he is a danger to the women, the young women left behind the places I left.
00:17:10 Liz: And what I came up against was unbelievable. Unbelievable. The performative investigations that led to no particular outcomes. The patronizing conversations that were had with me around, well, we're never going to let him work with another young fundraiser again. And I was like, that's not the answer. That is not the answer to this problem. Only the CEO will ever work with him. Okay. So he gets elevated to be working with, you know what I mean? Like it was just like this all this bad behavior was rewarded with like them closing ranks and protecting this individual.
00:17:49 Liz: And it really was eye opening. And then like fighting the system. I have fought the human rights system here in Nova Scotia. I have fought the government. And it just continues to be that when it comes to reputational damage or an issue that might cause some kind of reputational damage, the way that leaders boards, supposed leaders in our sector close ranks and will shut you out is... It feels shocking at first and I felt... I think this is the thing that I always tell people, I felt so stupid and I know that that's not a good term to use, but I felt so ignorant and so stupid and so naive. Because many of the women I met, many of the Black, Indigenous, Brown, Asian, South East Asian women that I met after were like, how are you surprised? Why are you surprised?
00:18:45 Liz: Were you surprised that the sector's like this? And I was like, oh my God, you're right. It's me. Like I didn't get it. And so many, so many women that look like me and walk through the world like I do don't understand. We think that gender oppression or gender-based harassment is this massive issue, but it's much like a lot of things where white women are like, 'Wow, this is the thing that affects me. Therefore, it must be the most important thing in our sector." And I have learned so much about having humility and understanding of the intersections by which people are discriminated against.
00:19:21 Liz: And the reason I am as vocal as I am is not because I think my issue is the most important. But I know that the more I stand up and speak out with the privilege that I do have, the easier it becomes for people who don't look like me and don't have the privilege I have to hopefully feel that they can also make their statements and speak their truth. And it will never be completely safe as long as people that look like me. And walk through the world like I do are running these organizations because we just don't know because we're ignorant.
00:20:02 Liz: And that's why it's become so dangerous for, you know, I look at Claudine Gay at Harvard and I look at all of these Black women who have been leading organizations. I know there was another professor in the States that recently committed suicide. It's because we're just, I think the thing that's worse than the ignorance is the moderate... white moderate behavior that we have in our sector.
00:20:27 Liz: And so yeah, every chance I get to say something, I will take it because not because I think people need to hear more from me, but because I know there are some people listening that are need to hear that there can be a change in mind shift and how a white woman can think and operate hopefully. Sorry, that was a bit of a long rant.
00:20:48 Maria: No, no, that's totally okay.
00:20:48 Liz: I want one other thing. No.
00:20:52 Maria: No, wait, you're definitely one of, I would say like two white women that I always see putting everything on the line to push the needle forward. Like to even have the opportunity to push the needle forward. And I think that you've done a lot of things publicly, which also helps people who have similar experiences or thoughts, like formulate that verbiage and move things forward themselves. I think it's really important as a white person to move things forward in that manner. But I actually wanted to go back to something that you said at the beginning of your answer. And that's around the op-ed because there's so many times where I talk to in-house staff and they think like, well, like the internal processes are not working. I keep being harassed or bullied or, you know, being asked to do fraud or whatever the situation is. So I'm gonna take this to the media, right?
00:21:50 Maria: And either if they're alone or I've seen letters signed by thousands of people calling out, for example, MSF around their international development practices and how they treat foreign doctors versus local doctors and all those different things. And to me, I think also maybe naively, like I would think that the media would be a great way to hold organizations and leadership accountable.
00:21:50 Maria: But from what I've seen, that's not really the case. Organizations, leaders can have the biggest scandals and still have the perception of innocence behind them, still feel upwards, still be platformed. And I don't really know how I feel about that. It's really hard to stomach.
00:22:44 Liz: Failing upwards is the best. I always, and God. Sorry to... well, no, not sorry, but not sorry. But I always say this is like, do everything you can with the overconfidence of a mediocre white man and you'll be alright in life.
00:22:59 Maria: Absolutely.
00:23:01 Liz: But you know what? Shout out to all the male allies out there, especially the white male allies. It's ironic, you know, I was just talking to someone the other day in regards to all this stuff and we agreed to actually, so there's some amazing men out there. So, you know, I joke, but I don't joke. There's some level of truth always to that statement. Yeah, failing upwards for sure. And yeah, the media, I think a lot of people think, oh, you know, I'll go and I'll talk and it'll be this big Me Too movement.
00:23:34 Liz: I looked, so before me, there was, you know, I looked at Zelda Perkins, who I now have the privilege of knowing as a friend and somebody that I collaborate with on the Can't Buy My Silence campaign. And she was the first woman to break her NDA with Harvey Weinstein. And Zelda's very acutely aware, much like I am, that she had a colleague, a woman of color, who was the one that was assaulted. And that woman's story has been eclipsed by Zelda's. And Zelda's aware that is that because it's more palatable because she's an outspoken white woman. And it's not as palatable for an Asian immigrant who bravely came forward to deal with this.
00:24:20 Maria: That hit home so hard.
00:24:22 Liz: It does, and it absolutely does. So why is my story any more important than anyone else's? I think because I look like the majority of the sector. I don't think it's because my story is more important. I think it's just because people see me and they see themselves in me because there's so many of us that look the same way. But then you hear a Black woman speaking out. So Nneka Allen, Mide, and Muthoni came out with their story and literally not a single publication in this sector would publish Nneka's testimonial about her experience with anti-Black racism. So we had to form the co-conspirators in order for it to get anywhere.
00:25:02 Liz: And again, why would you require a combined effort of a group of people to amplify a story as horrible as that one? Well, it's because the complicity between the leaders in the sector and the owners of these publications and the way that they sort of fawn all over each other is that they won't take these hard conversations and put them out there. And yes, it's terrifying.
00:25:28 Maria: Just before you continue, some people may not be familiar with that story. And I'd love if you could talk a little bit about that because some of our audience numbers are not fundraisers, they may be EDs. So just kind of what happened with AFP Toronto as they blew up.
00:24:22 Liz: Right. So Nneka Allen, Mide Akerewusi and Muthoni, they're three Black fundraisers who joined the board of AFP Toronto. And I'm trying to remember the dates. I want to say it was 2017, 2018. And forgive me if I'm forgetting the dates exactly. All three of them had a horrible experience with being tokenized as Black members of the board. And when issues were raised, they were effectively, well, Nneka was effectively pushed out. And then Mide and Muthoni resigned in solidarity with Nneka, but also because of their own experiences with tokenism and all of that.
00:26:33 Liz: And I would encourage people to look up Nneka Allen's piece. You can look up her LinkedIn, everything is pinned to the top of her LinkedIn, you can read her testimonial. And a group of us came together, friends, allies, to help amplify that story because it had been almost four years and nothing had happened. It was the worst kept secret in our sector. And I won't speak about the specifics of who was involved because that's also obvious. If you were to look up AFP Toronto, co-conspirators, there's a petition.
00:27:07 Liz: There's a history there of the cease and desist letters that were received by AFP Toronto, AFP Global, and AFP Canada Foundation, and AFP Canada that named me and Nneka and Mide in it. There were legal threats. There were all kinds of things that happened. And essentially the crux of it was is that they experienced anti-Black racism as board members and no one wanted to deal with it. And therefore, a cone of silence was sort of placed around it. And they just hoped it would go away. So that's sort of the story we're talking about.
00:27:46 Maria: I'm going to be linking Annika Allen's piece, Us and Them, what it really means to belong in the show notes, if you haven't seen that before. But basically, after this, Bliss and a bunch of the co-conspirators launched a petition to kind of have AFP Toronto re-look at their practices after racialized people have been saying for years and years that they felt completely uncomfortable. And after Nneka came out with her testimonial and that petition got a thousand four hundred signatures. There were the East Indices letters from a person on the board who was saying there was no racism that happened at that time. It was a mess. And I don't really know what accountability has to look like after the fact. The whole board ended up resigning, which...
00:28:39 Liz: They were willing to resign instead of apologize publicly. That I think is something that has to be called out. And there's a number of them that still have not apologized publicly. Quite a large number of them. And there's some of them that are still involved with the organization. And I think that also needs to be called out. And I also note that Hillborn recently published someone's article who is at the center of this entire scandal. So continue to be platformed by industry publications, which, you know, doesn't surprise me, but I don't think if you don't know about the history, you wouldn't realize how ridiculous it all is.
00:29:20 Liz: I actually feel really uncomfortable with some of the stuff that Hillborn is currently doing because they are platforming this person with multiple pieces who, again, is at the center of all this. But then they're also approaching racialized authors to be like, hey, you're the colonizing fundraising piece is really good. I'd love to share it. And those two things don't coexist. Like a person who blew up our chapter and did a lot of visibly anti-Black things publicly and privately, it's just like, where is the accountability if our own publications, people who know the story very intimately are not willing to not share their platform with someone who's been proven to be not the best role model.
00:30:09 Liz: Yeah, I mean, I think it's a perfect example of our sector's white moderate tendencies, right? It's like, well, was it proven in court? No, but it almost apparently was going to go to court. Be very happy to pursue that personally. I know that is not an area of interest for others. Was it, you know, well, you know, it was hearsay. I was like, no, well, this is the thing. It's the same as like, and this is what I'm talking about. Like when a woman comes forward and says she's been raped or harassed or whatever, we believe you first.
00:30:49 Liz: We believe you because it is extraordinarily difficult for a victim to come forward after the trauma that they've endured. There is no public or personal benefit to being a whistleblower. None. So we believe you. And then when Black people tell you that there has been racism and discrimination against them, you believe them. Because I'll tell you what, as a white person, I don't get to decide what's racist and what's not racist. I don't. And I think people in our sector need to remember that as white people, we do not get to decide what anti-Black racism looks like for Black people. So to claim that there's some hearsay to me feels I am not a Black person, but I know what it's like to come forward and say, I had this harm done to me. And then for someone to say, well, did it though? It's like, well, do you get to decide that for me? You get to decide how it landed.
00:31:49 Liz: It's just so patronizing. It is so blatantly an avoidance of accountability. I think it's all symptomatic of the same stuff we started talking about at the beginning of this chat, which is our sector is just full of white moderates that are not willing to do the hard work of actually decolonizing themselves because they want to sit on both sides of the fence. They want to play with the old school fundraisers who are still touting the same nonsense that they have been their whole careers and don't want to shift.
00:32:23 Liz: And they want to bring in the new audience of young millennials, Gen Z, Gen Y, the Alpha generation. They want to bring them on board too and pretend that they're about equity and diversity and inclusion. You can't have it both ways. You're going to make enemies. People are going to be irritated with you. That's okay. But what are you really about? Like?
00:32:49 Maria: Absolutely. And I think scenarios like this speak to the barriers to justice that many people face, like proven in court. That takes years first, and resources, which many people in our communities do not have. So, barriers to justice right there, and also the presumption of innocence that white people get that is not extended or kind of mirrored in the belief in what racialized people are saying or, you know, telling you they're experiencing like the presumption of innocence, even after years and years and years of being a terrible person, you can still get a job. You can still be platformed, you can still speak at AFP.
00:33:36 Maria: And it just becomes really disheartening for people who have faith and justice, who have experienced harm. Maybe not at the hands of that specific person or that one or that one, but to see that it is so common and that so many people are seen as expendable and also the kind of people who are seen as expendable. The outspoken, the people who are victimized, people who fight for better things in our sector. Usually they're the ones that, as you were saying, are shut out, face barriers to justice and leave.
00:34:13 Liz: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, again, white privilege plays itself out in my scenario. So I'll take, this is gonna be contentious because I know it's a big issue for our sector right now. Watching what is happening right now with Israel-Palestine is just an absolute microcosm, perfect example of the difference between what happens to Black and Brown and people of color, racialized folks. When they speak out about inequity, and then when people who are white or white presenting speak about it.
00:34:53 Liz: So I have watched so many of my colleagues of color speak out for free Palestine and speak out against Zionism, which for anyone who hasn't done their homework. Judaism has been around for 5,000 years, Zionism has been around for 100, and it is the equivalent of a settler colonial movement. And it is no different than any other settler colonial movement where it has displaced Black, Brown, and Indigenous people from their homes in a pursuit of some kind of like ethno-nationalist vision of what a country is. And it's been supported by Britain, it's been supported by Germany, it's been supported by Canada and the US and other colonial powers, right?
00:35:37 Liz: And I have watched people lose contracts. I have watched people lose speaking engagements. I have watched people had their platforms taken down off LinkedIn. I have watched them be attacked openly. And I have watched white people in our sector, again, remain silent about the genocide of an entire people. And the attacks that have happened openly on social media against black and brown and indigenous and other people of color has been appalling, appalling. And again, that's a privilege to not be able to speak out about it.
00:36:14 Maria: It's really interesting how quickly people move to hold Black and Brown people accountable to something that they feel is below their standard, but we don't have the same accountability for white people in the sector.
00:36:28 Liz: Yeah, and I mean, I think so much of it is about the bubble I talked about at the beginning. When you don't know that you're in that bubble, you don't realize how much harm is. I always liken it to people of like, it's like being in a uterus. It's like you're surrounded floating in this like nice, like warm, happy, you know, there's things happening, but for the most part, it's just, and it's like having that burst. And like when a baby comes into the world and you're like, it's cold, it's dark and it's horrible. And I'm really sad and I need help.
00:37:03 Liz: And unless you have a community of people who are willing to help you, which I have never, I have to say in all of my years of doing activism, advocacy work, I have never felt more supported, held, and really brought in than I have from the communities of color that have said to me, you know what, we get it, you are like... We see this all the time. You're a white woman who tried to do something and then realized how bad it was and got really mad and thought that you were gonna be the one to fix the problem.
00:37:42 Liz: And if you just talk loud enough, that it would change. And now we're watching you get tired, we're watching you get exhausted, and this is not the way forward. And you're also alienating a lot of other white people in the process, because you're so mad. Come with us, learn. We're gonna teach you how we do this work together as a community and be part of this. And I have to say, I think that's been the most beautiful experience for me is not so much about all of the other stuff, it's more, if we could just get more white people and white folks, especially white moderates, to see that there is a better way forward.
00:38:19 Liz: A more collaborative, communal, kind, caring, compassionate way to seek justice. I think that the world in this sector would be a much better place, but it is much easier to sit in your white privilege than it is to do the hard work of really unraveling a lot of what's going on.
00:38:40 Maria: For some organizations that are looking to kind of move accountability internal and as a sector forward for themselves, either as an organization or as leaders, are there any tips that you would give them?
00:38:55 Liz: It's interesting, we're seeing this backlash to DEI work right now, which I think was inevitable. I think I wrote about it saying it was a bit of a, I would call it a white lash. And that's not my term, that's been a term that's been used for a long time. But I think look to the Black, Brown and Indigenous leaders in our community and in our sectors to tell us what change looks like. Community-centric, it's funny though, like, it has to be led for and by those people.
00:39:25 Liz: One of the things that's been fascinating to watch is how community centric fundraising and I look at the channel now and how it's been kind of co-opted by these sort of white people that want to feel woke. It's like, okay guys, we need to like back the fuck off. Excuse my language. Sorry, you can edit that out hopefully. We're just so desperate to seem like we're doing the right thing instead of just doing the right thing. And I think instead of being performative in our ally-ship or performative in the way that we're doing change, like let's literally listen.
00:40:01 Liz: And that's why it's always hard for me. I always feel really weird when I talk because at the end of the day, all of the learning I do, the best learning I do is in community with people who know more and have lived this experience longer than I have. It's like, I'm still a toddler. And I look to people, Nneka and others call them elders, right? They have been in this fight their whole lives. I have so much to learn. And listening, reading, I could provide you with some of the things I've been reading.
00:40:40 Liz: I think at the end of the day, there's so much out there. It's really not hard. It just requires effort. Like Google it, do some research, follow Nneka, follow Mide. Read the essay, follow people like Roxane Gay, follow people like, you know, there's so many writers and authors out there that we can look to to understand a different perspective on the world that we're in and really shift our perspective, but it takes time and effort and it's work. It's not, it's no one wants to hear that answer because everyone wants to check marks, check marks on the box. But this is a journey, not a destination, right?
00:41:29 Maria: Very true.
00:41:30 Liz: Yeah. So I'm sorry if that's not terribly helpful. I think it's a reading list, a requisite reading list. And I'm like, there isn't one. There's just work.
00:41:42 Maria: Yeah. It's so much learning and unlearning. So I think highlighting that takes years and years and years to get to a deeper level of understanding of what different lived experiences look and feel like.
00:41:56 Liz: And if you look at your close circle of friends and they all look like you sound like you and have the same experience as you, then maybe you need to make some effort to do something differently and not like go find a different group of friends for the sake of just looking like you're trying, but more because surrounding yourself by different perspectives will change who you are.
00:42:18 Maria: Thank you, Liz, for joining us today. I have loved this conversation. I love all the conversations I have with you and just seeing what you post on social media. So thank you for your time.
00:42:29 Liz: Thank you.
00:42:31 Maria: For our audience, where can they connect with you?
00:42:3 Liz: I am still on the hell escape app that used to be called Twitter. And then I'm also on LinkedIn at Liz LeClair. And yeah, I mean, I co-founded a company called Sargasso Philanthropic with four other women in our sector here in Halifax. We're just aiming to try and change our own backyard first in order to be able to hopefully change things at a larger level. But yeah, always reach out. I'm always happy to have a conversation with anyone. I don't always agree with other people's perspectives and I will tell them that, but it doesn't mean that we can't talk. Just be prepared that if you're gonna challenge me on something I've written, I'll probably be willing to defend it. Unless you can make me believe otherwise.
00:43:30 Maria: That is true. Okay, well those links will be in the show notes down below. And I wanted to thank everybody for tuning into this episode of The Small Nonprofit. As always, if you want to see our lovely faces, they will be on the YouTube recording of this video. And I hope that you got a lot out of this conversation. I know accountability has been a really tough thing for a lot of fundraisers to grapple with, whether it's, you know, harassment or fraud or racially based micro and macro aggressions. Those have all been really difficult topics. So take the sun into the world and do good. Until next time, bye for now.
00:44:17 Maria: Thank you for listening to another episode of The Small Nonprofit. If you want to continue the conversation, feel free to connect with our guests directly or find me on LinkedIn. Let's keep moving money to mission and prioritizing our well-being. Bye for now.
