Embracing the Future of Work with Kamilah Martin

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In this episode of The Small Nonprofit Podcast, Maria talks with Kamilah Martin, founder and CEO of Katalyst, about nonprofits adapting to the future of work. They discuss evolving work models, remote and hybrid setups, and innovative leadership strategies. Kamilah shares her journey from nonprofit executive to consultant and offers insights on piloting new initiatives, shared leadership, and overcoming resistance to change. Tune in for practical tips on how nonprofits can embrace the future of work. 

Have you seen organizations successfully embracing innovation? Maria and Kamilah want to hear about them! Reach out and share your examples so we can highlight them on the podcast and learn from these organizations. 

Key Episode Highlights: 

• COVID-19's impact on work 

• Shared leadership models and equity in remote work 

• Challenges of piloting new ideas 

• Fostering a culture of innovation 

Quotable Moments: 

• "We existed a certain way because that's all we knew. But COVID forced us to rethink that — and that opened up so many opportunities for innovation." – Kamilah Martin 

• "Innovation for innovation's sake isn't enough. What are your goals? How do you evaluate if your pilot actually achieves what you want?" – Kamilah Martin 

• "Nonprofits that innovate now will thrive in the next 20 years. Those that don’t will get left behind." – Kamilah Martin 

Actionable Tips: 

➜ Embrace flexible work models: Involve program and admin staff in discussions on remote work equity, and find ways to offer flexibility, even to those in roles requiring in-person work (e.g., alternating schedules). 
➜ Pilot innovations with clear goals: Establish a finite timeline for pilots with an evaluation period at the end to determine if adjustments are needed. 

➜ Leverage external expertise: Don’t try to solve complex problems alone—engage consultants or experts in areas like change management, technology, or HR for quicker solutions. 

Connect with Us: 

• Connect with Maria 

• Connect with Kamilah 

• The Katalyst Website  

Support the Podcast: 

Consider supporting the podcast by subscribing here. 

Don’t forget to become a supporter of our show!

Watch this episode on Youtube.

Coming Next Week: 

Join us next week with fundraising expert, Rhea Wong, as she shares how to build successful major gifts programs and boost your donations! 

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Maria: Hi, friends. Today I'm talking to Kamilah and I'm really excited about what we have to share with you today. We're talking all things future of work and how the way that we work is changing and why we need to change with it. So I'll just hand over the mic for Kamilah to introduce herself. Hello. Hello.

[00:00:18] Kamilah: Hi there. Thanks, Maria. It's great to be here. I'm Kamilah Martin. I'm the founder and CEO of Katalyst. I started out as an independent consultant. After I transitioned from my nonprofit 9 to 5 role, I was a VP of an international humanitarian organization, and during the 2020 great resignation period, I was one of those great resigners, I guess.

[00:00:40] Kamilah: and I started consulting, wasn't quite sure what was going to happen next. but I started and I started being very vocal about my journey on LinkedIn and a lot of women started reaching out to me saying, how did you do this? I want to do this too. This is my story. and then, so I built this company Katalyst where I basically support primarily black and brown women who are leaving their director or [00:01:00] executive level roles in the nonprofit sector.

[00:01:02] Kamilah: and wanting to explore Floor independent consulting. So we have a membership community, we do events, and then I still consult. that's what Katalyst is about. And I'm so happy to be here with you, Maria. 

[00:01:12] Maria: Me too. And I'm a little bit happier to be talking about consulting as well, because. That's something that I felt was the future of work when I was, joining Cindy Wegman's cohort, when it came to the Fractional Fundraising Academy, where this felt very innovative, this felt very different.

[00:01:29] Maria: So it's really exciting to hear that's what you're doing as well, supporting people in their journey to do something. 

[00:01:38] Kamilah: And I would say, all of my experience at this point is anecdotal, right? I haven't done any researcher studies to see really what the trends are, but there are plenty of articles like, Chronicle of Philanthropy,Nonprofit Quarterly, That talks about this exodus, particularly of leaders of organizations who aren't feeling supported, who are looking for some sort of different kind of lifestyle along with their [00:02:00] work.

[00:02:00] Kamilah: They still feel like they have something to contribute to the sector. They still want to work and want to contribute to the sector, but they just wanted to look a little differently for their lives. So it's a, it's an interesting balance. that I'm observing, organizations can either get on board and get creative or, try and stick, I say white knuckles to the old ways of doing things.

[00:02:20] Kamilah: And I, I'm a firm believer that there's a way to make both work. And I've been living it for several years. I'm, supporting again, about 80 women right now who are doing it. And, I think there's a tremendous opportunity. 

[00:02:32] Maria: I wonder how much of this is actually being driven by, Gen Z entering the workforce.

[00:02:37] Maria: there is a lot of, people who are putting boundaries or saying no, I can't live like this anymore. I actually want to have a life outside of work. so I'm really excited to see that shift though. 

[00:02:47] Kamilah: Yeah, I think they're going to definitely be the vocal ones that are going to hopefully try and change some things.

[00:02:53] Kamilah: and I'm here for it. I will say majority of the women in my community are 40s, 40s and 50s. so [00:03:00] we're, Gen X, Gen X and kind of the older millennials. What do they call them? Geriatric millennials, I think is what the term I've heard. Some of the older millennials. Who I think, honestly, during the COVID period, when people had a taste of experimenting with different ways of working, getting creative, seeing how it worked for them, they were just like, I've,I'm not going back.

[00:03:20] Kamilah: I'm not willing to go back. Or if I do go back, it's going to have to look a lot different. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think there, like I've said, I'm going to probably be a broken horse on a broken record on this, but I think there's, Really opportunity to figure this out.

[00:03:34] Kamilah: Like it's an exciting period of transition and change and, being innovative and creative. And I, I'm a firm believer that the ones that are going to make it in 20 years are going to be the ones that are starting now to figure out how to make this kind of shift work for them, work for everybody.

[00:03:46] Kamilah: I 

[00:03:48] Maria: love to talk about COVID because I feel like that was a huge opportunity for the sector to transition. And a lot of them did very successfully. When we talk about the future of work, apparently COVID [00:04:00] pushed us ahead by 10 to 20 years where we would have been when it came to like online building communities and online gathering and what that could look like collaborating, without being the same physical space.

[00:04:13] Maria: And with the nonprofit that I was at, because I was actually an in house fundraiser when COVID hit, we just moved entirely online and then conversations around Do we need an office,those kind of conversations started because we were actually paying quite a bit of money for a small organization for the space that we had.

[00:04:31] Maria: We're in midtown Toronto. We weren't even downtown, but it is so very expensive the cost of living here. we were deciding, should we move away from that? And what could that look like? Which I thought was also very exciting. So the remote work and the removal of a communal office space were.

[00:04:48] Maria: what's the impact of that? 

[00:04:50] Kamilah: Yeah, let's think about it. Like we, we existed a certain way because that's all we knew, right? We didn't know other ways. I, coincidentally, I've been working remotely since 2012. [00:05:00] Was that it? Since 20? No, I've been working for remote for 12 years. So whatever that math is,and so it was my team that was really the primary remote team of an organization that wasn't fully remote.

[00:05:10] Kamilah: So it was like a hybrid thing before zoom was even a thing. And, Kind of pat myself on the back. I feel like we were one of the most effective and productive and happy teams. We had no people leaving voluntarily. we were able to produce what was required of us. There was no drama,just the things that I think I learned from that experience.

[00:05:27] Kamilah: really helped me in this process be like, this is possible for majority of us. And then that point, like you said, we had no choice, when we weren't, at least here in the States, we, everything was shutting down in most States, people were, people had to innovate. They were forced to innovate while everyone was dealing with this collective trauma and, uncertainty and fear around COVID.

[00:05:46] Kamilah: And I really think that was such a creative, Renaissance period in a way of thinking about Yes, we've done this way this whole time. Do we really have to so it forced people to have those questions to look at the budget of it, right? To [00:06:00] look at the finances, which is what drives a lot of these conversations.

[00:06:03] Kamilah: Generally, how can we save money and get the work done that we need to get done? So we saw it happen. I think some people handle it better than some organizations handled it better than others for various reasons, because perhaps they weren't ready internally to look at everything that needed to be looked at to make it successful.

[00:06:19] Kamilah: They weren't willing to put the money, transfer the money elsewhere to think about online convenings or potential technology that could support us in these environments. but I think it really was an opportunity for us to be like, huh,let's take a step back and let's. start basically from scratch to figure out how we can do what we need to do in a different way than we've already done it.

[00:06:36] Kamilah: And it worked for a lot of people. And I think the ones that didn't work for are the ones that are desperately trying to get everyone to come back into the office. And that's the tension. some people want that. And I think that's absolutely fine. And I think there's a growing group of people who don't want that.

[00:06:50] Kamilah: And I think there's a way for us to figure that out. Like it doesn't have to be an us versus them. It doesn't have to be a tug of war. We can, I believe in us,we are very in, in genius [00:07:00] kind of species. we can figure out solutions to these sorts of problems.

[00:07:05] Maria: Do you often hear, because this is, something that I've heard before where people are resisting the future of work is oh, but it's not fair to the program staff. they have to be on site dealing with people and talking to people and delivering services and the fundraising staff, the admin staff, like they get to just be at home being super cushy and who knows if they're even working, right?

[00:07:26] Maria: I'd love to hear your thoughts around the equity around. who gets to enjoy some of these perks and if there's ways to balance the perks. 

[00:07:34] Kamilah: That's such a good question and it's just a very valuable point to make. there is going to be disparity and I think certain roles are just by nature of what the work requires.

[00:07:43] Kamilah: It's going to require different things. and I think, when you come in to decide whether you're going to apply for something, you just have to take the reality into account. I worked in programs, but I worked in a global setting where we didn't have to be doing the on the ground, kind of work.

[00:07:55] Kamilah: Like our work was really a global online community before those even really were a [00:08:00] thing. it's just the reality of the situation. You have to I think, one way you can balance that is by perhaps offering a different kind of time off schedule or a different kind of,if someone has to go into for in person stuff, then maybe, there can be an alter alternation where is that the word where some people can, alternate schedules.

[00:08:18] Kamilah: So not everyone has to be on and in person all the time. But there's, again, there's a way for us to answer just about every question. Problem and challenge that is thrown at us. A lot of it is just recognizing what needs to happen and what the reality is communicating that to anyone who's, interviewing and hired for the role and then figuring out a way to make it equitable.

[00:08:35] Kamilah: Get staff buy in. What did the staff think? it's. Knowing, what, again, what the reality is and what it has to be. It doesn't have to be some top down decision. You should be getting input and feedback, from the people that are going to be most impacted and who might have the equity challenges, they can be the ones to help you come up with a solution.

[00:08:55] Maria: That's a good idea. I don't know why that didn't immediately come to mind, but that's a great place to start [00:09:00] to have the staff tell you like what feels good, what doesn't feel good. And it's a whole team buy in. When you're talking about like a top down decision making, that's where I usually see the innovation get stuck.

[00:09:13] Maria: so for example, there was an organization that I was working at where I was saying like, Hey, we can actually pilot a four day workweek. I think that could work really well at our organization because the staff is amazing. they're just such strong staff. They really believe in the cause. They put a hundred and fifty percent into it every single day.

[00:09:33] Maria: Like, how do we make this a better place for them to work, especially because, nonprofit salaries are not the highest. So how can we add this perk for them to want to stay and retain our employees and keep them happy? But the pushback that I got was, we can't do that. We run a food bank, we would have to close.

[00:09:54] Maria: But my solution was, we could alternate, as you were saying, alternate the schedule. So maybe half the staff [00:10:00] work Monday to Thursday and the other half work Tuesday to Friday. Okay. But there was just such a pushback to actually wanting to move forward with this, and not because it would affect programming.

[00:10:10] Maria: So it was a little bit hard for me to understand and also keep moving those changes forward. So if you have any advice to people who are trying to implement the future work at their organization, what do you think that would be? 

[00:10:23] Kamilah: Yeah, that's a challenging question because I think what you're dealing with at that level is, A lot of times,people feeling like they have the answers, people feeling like they know what's best and fear of change.

[00:10:35] Kamilah: And that's a very individual thing. And that's something that, I'm always talking about just personal development and kind of, Self reflection as a leader, because I think those kinds of qualities are the things that sort of make or break or bottleneck or push forward, innovation.

[00:10:50] Kamilah: And if you are a leader where stuff is getting stuck with you and your leadership team, I think it's time to really examine and self reflect and ask why perhaps get an outside, kind of person to come in [00:11:00] and help, diagnose or do some sort of root cause assessment of really what's happening, what some of the challenges are at the leadership level.

[00:11:06] Kamilah: And frankly, that is where everything that's where everything's going to start and stop. So if you don't have an ally or advocate on the board or on the senior leadership team who is able to step outside of that fear of change and to think innovatively and to,step outside of potentially even just ego driven factors, then it's going to be a problem for the organization in anything that you're trying to do to innovate.

[00:11:27] Kamilah: period. Honestly, if you're micromanaging at that level, if you're not open to listening and changing with the tide, you're going to. You're going to get, you're going to get left behind. my advice to people in those situations is to see if you have an ally somewhere within the organization who is, who has some sort of decision making, quote unquote, power, and if not and if it's something that just doesn't align with you, then, perhaps it's time to look elsewhere.

[00:11:51] Kamilah: I hate to say it, but,if it's something that's not aligning with you and you have a passion and you believe something can be done differently and everyone is hellbent on that not happening, then maybe that's just not the right place for you. [00:12:00] 

[00:12:02] Maria: Have you seen how nonprofits approach leadership and governance change over the last few years as we have all these conversations around the future of work?

[00:12:10] Kamilah: I think what I have seen is a person or two on a senior leadership team wanting to change and innovate, right? And I think again, depending on the position they hold, the level of authority and kind of power that they hold within that, ecosystem, is what determines the direction of the organization.

[00:12:30] Kamilah: If you can get enough people and buy in to really think innovatively. And again, the ones that I've seen, so I was an interim executive, in two organizations during COVID, So we were having those conversations of, okay, we're working from home. How do we support the team? How do we get the work done? We were having those tough conversations.

[00:12:47] Kamilah: And then towards the end of it, we were having the return to work conversations. and I would say one organization navigated really successfully because they had buy in from the larger senior leadership [00:13:00] team that this is working. We don't need to bring everybody back. We had the finance, VP, talking about this is how much we'll save.

[00:13:07] Kamilah: This is how we can, they were willing to have that conversation and they had the internal relationship to be able to navigate sort of those challenging conversations. There was definitely pushback. There was definitely conflict, but they had the trust, I think, internally to be able to navigate that.

[00:13:20] Kamilah: and then I've seen some that are just like, absolutely not. and those are the ones that are dealing with high staff turnover. They're the ones that are dealing with,low culture and staff morale. They're the ones also that are dealing with, impact in their programming, right?

[00:13:32] Kamilah: I think it all trickle down, trickles down and is part of the whole equation. If you don't have a senior leadership team and board that's functioning, you're going to have a chaotic, or programming team who's not going to be able to do the work that they're doing, so it all and I would say the ones that I have seen do it well are the ones that are open to, Changing and open to exploring and open to having like entrepreneurial almost mindset of what can we try and do differently and innovate and pilot and [00:14:00] fail at and, and iterate on.

[00:14:01] Kamilah: I think that's really the, that's the spectrum that I'm seeing. 

[00:14:06] Maria: I have seen so many innovative things happening lately, and I've just been so happy with what I'm seeing. I just want to shout out some of them. Nonprofit Starting Social Enterprises, I think has been a really interesting thing to see first hand of you had this idea and now it's making you 2 million or it's making you 700, 000.

[00:14:26] Maria: any amount that you're making from that is very based on that entrepreneurial spirit. And The ability to try something, and if it fails, but at least you tried it, and if it succeeds, there's a lot to, there's a lot to gain. There's Rewards to reap. so that's one. I'm also talking to another guest on the podcast who is here to talk about the transitioning of assets from one organization to another.

[00:14:52] Maria: for example, like a program no longer works in your organizations. Now, you're going to move it to an organization where it makes more sense. [00:15:00] Are there any examples that stick out to you? 

[00:15:03] Kamilah: Those are two really amazing examples. And I think I'm going to just go back to a lot of it is like ego. I had a conversation on another podcast where that was the primary thing that I was talking about.

[00:15:12] Kamilah: there's a lot at stake when there's, when you're the executive director at an organization, right? You feel a lot of pressure to make sure there's success. You have pressure to raise the funds, you have pressure to, develop, and execute impactful programming. and I think. the ones that are able to step back and take themselves out of it and really look at the really real what's happening.

[00:15:30] Kamilah: Like you said, the, this program isn't working for us anymore. This isn't really, this isn't really our strength anymore. how can we partner or, transition to, Our services somewhere else. I think partnerships are really incredible when they are done well within our sector.

[00:15:46] Kamilah: And I don't see them done enough because there's still this competition and scarcity. And, instead of partnering, we'll develop the exact same program that someone else is doing, thinking that we can do it better, which I think is, Insane. Um,so I don't know if that really [00:16:00] answers your question, but I think partnerships are really a good example of how people are innovating.

[00:16:05] Kamilah: Obviously, I think, listening to staff and the power of the pilot, and giving people some runway to try things on their own without having to get approval from every single person in the organization. That's another thing I always advocate for. Make sure there's something that everyone on your team can, Answer and do on their own without having to get approval from five different people, because I think the agency that offers and the innovation and creativity that offers when you're able to just be in your bubble of I want to do this.

[00:16:33] Kamilah: I want to try this, talk to people that you think need to be involved, but not have to get, signatures and sign offs and all that kind of stuff. Everyone should have something that they Can all I think within their space. I think the organizations that are, able to do that are being pretty innovative and seem to be navigating this transition fairly.

[00:16:50] Kamilah: I want to touch on something that you said around, giving yourself the permission to fail to try something new to pilot it. Something that I have seen not [00:17:00] go as successfully that people are really interested in getting right is shared leadership. removing the hierarchy in your nonprofit.

[00:17:08] Maria: having co executive EDs, or three EDs. so I'd love to hear if you've seen that go well. And, if not, I can jump into when I've seen it go poorly and why. So you can eliminate some of that risk before you actually jump into that innovation. 

[00:17:23] Kamilah: Yeah, I would love to hear your example. So I have not been a part of anything like that.

[00:17:27] Kamilah: I've seen them cropping up more. I've seen an article or two around from co eds, who that they put out to say this is what has worked for us and why it's working. I suggest google some of those. If you guys are really interested in firsthand accounts of people from the inside who are experimenting with this, but I would love to hear your example.

[00:17:44] Maria: Yeah, so I, I think I've only seen it be done successfully a handful of times, but I haven't been involved in that, those organizations. So it's a little bit harder to see, but the time where I saw it not be successful, one of the, the [00:18:00] structure of the organization needed to change. This was not going to be, moving forward anymore because I think one of the EDs wasn't holding up their side of the bargain or something like that.

[00:18:10] Maria: But anyways, now the board's looking at these two EDs thinking okay, how do we move forward? And they were unable to figure out how to get past constructive dismissal. So what do we do with this person who was a program person before? Do we offer them a role, their previous role that they were better suited for?

[00:18:28] Maria: this was just a little bit out of their depth. Or do we, let them go? Because otherwise you fall into the risk of constructive dismissal if you offer them a role that is, Below the title and salary that they're currently getting paid. So it created a possible liability for the organization because it is a contractual relationship.

[00:18:48] Maria: It's an employment agreement. So that falls into its own set of laws outside of the organization. So that's why I wanted to bring it up because there's some pilots that you can't go back from, right? [00:19:00] Like you're piloting it and it'll be, a year or two before you're able to undo what has been done, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't try it.

[00:19:08] Maria: I've seen organizations do it well, but, it's quieter when they do it well. It's not as obvious, there's no big scandal or anything like that, 

[00:19:15] Kamilah: Yeah, and I just wonder by, the nature of a pilot, if having a finite, if everyone has a finite end, and the, understanding it, is that there's going to be an evaluation of whether or not this has worked after a successful 6, 9 month period that I would think that could help alleviate some of that challenge.

[00:19:29] Kamilah: But I think if it's, of course, an open ended pilot,we really don't know, what the terms are and what the structure is and what the goal is ultimately of experimenting with this. I just think there has to be some kind of foresight. And for thought into that process, so that you don't get to a point at the end where you're trying to scramble and figure out what it is that you need to do.

[00:19:47] Kamilah: so that would be my only recommendation there, just like really think through and they're probably, I'm going to push the consultants, obviously, but there are probably people out there who are change management experts who, maybe have a framework for you to kind Look at a purchase or whatever, get [00:20:00] some kind of consultation around.

[00:20:01] Kamilah: How do we set up the structure so that it can sunset peacefully? if it needs to revert back to something else or try something else. But that's the definition of a pilot, right? you try something. and if it doesn't work out, you should be able to Say, okay, this doesn't work out.

[00:20:13] Kamilah: let's move on to another type of model with everyone on board and understanding what that is and what that means. It looks like 

[00:20:21] Maria: I like what you're saying because it's not innovation for innovation's sake. It's what are your goals? Because sometimes you don't even know, you just started something and you're like, I want to be more equitable and Okay.

[00:20:31] Maria: But how does this do that? Does it do that? Or do you now just have two eds? Like, how are you going to track that it does that? How are you going to evaluate that? And where do the rest of, where does the rest of the staff actually fit in? 

[00:20:44] Kamilah: And my thing is, you don't have to figure that out on your own.

[00:20:47] Kamilah: Like there, this is just where my brain is now because I work with consultants all the time. And there are things that I never would have even considered as people having expertise and experience and frameworks and, all kinds of things in that. They can very easily help you answer [00:21:00] that problem.

[00:21:00] Kamilah: So you're, answer that question. So you're not spinning your wheels, as someone who doesn't know, trying to figure it out, like bringing, and this is a relearning, I think that we need to do in our sector because you don't have to have all the answers and you don't have to sit and have 25 million meetings to, to try and figure it out and have, the board who that's not their expertise, there are people out there and just about any area that you can think of that you're struggling with, that you want to innovate in.

[00:21:24] Kamilah: that have done this or that have really put some thought into this and have seen it successfully or can help you navigate some of the challenges. I just hope that in our sector we really recognize and understand that there are people out there that really can support us whenever we're dealing with hiccups.

[00:21:39] Kamilah: if we're butting heads and okay, this isn't going anywhere, find those people that can support you to navigate through those challenges. 

[00:21:47] Maria: I want to take a second to shout out Rachel Baerbauer here because, we were both at that conference where she was showing us the way that she's innovating kind of stewardship and automation and really leveraging some of the tools [00:22:00] that nonprofits might already have available to make their job easier.

[00:22:03] Maria: And I think that's a really easy spot to do innovation, like stewardship and solicitation when it comes to. automating reminders for you to then reach out to that donor and having your CRM do that automatically for you. I think there's a lot of room and I'm really excited to actually see the programs starting to do it themselves.

[00:22:24] Maria: it's not like a piecemeal solution where you're putting 5 softwares together. I wonder if there's any programs or touches when it comes to stewardship and solicitation that you think are really innovative right now. 

[00:22:35] Kamilah: Yeah, that's a good question. I don't really deal, manage in a bunch of those.

[00:22:38] Kamilah: And I learned a lot from Rachel during her presentation. It was all pretty mind blowing to me as well. I hired an operations person on my team to really look at the back end of our processes. we're using a lot of, not a lot, because I think that's another challenge in our society now there's so many options out there that have come up during this.

[00:22:56] Kamilah: really COVID period of everyone working from home and trying to figure out kind of new ways of [00:23:00] doing things, whether it's, slack and zoom and teams, and, there's so many options for all different kinds of things that you can use to innovate and, be supportive of your team in these sort of remote and hybrid environments.

[00:23:10] Kamilah: but yeah, I think Rachel's session was really, mind blowing to me just to know that there are things out there that I never even would have thought of to help make life easier and my team's lives easier, whether from a technology perspective or otherwise. so yeah. 

[00:23:25] Maria: When it comes to the technology side, are you seeing a lot of nonprofits start to adopt AI or not really mostly chat GPT still?

[00:23:33] Kamilah: I would say mostly chat GPT still. I think it's still in those early stages where folks don't really know what to do with it. but again, I'm going to say there are people and experts out there that Can coach organizations through some of the opportunities that are on the table so that we can make sure that we are, keeping up with everything that's going on.

[00:23:51] Kamilah: So we're not being left behind and also so that we can make our lives easier in the transition. So this to this new kind of way of doing things more seamless. So I think [00:24:00] if there's anything that I think that's coming to me during this conversation we're having right now, it's that when there are things that are changing, right?

[00:24:08] Kamilah: And the world is constantly changing, but when there's such change on. Such massive scale that we're seeing right now, and if there are things in your organization that you're continuously bumping up against to pause and stop trying to beat yourself up and be and figure it out and look for the people that can help you navigate that.

[00:24:26] Kamilah: And so whether it's technology and the people who are. On all the discord channels and on all the, the, whatever the web three things are that are happening out there that they can bring that expertise to you, whether it's a challenge that you're having with your,email marketing for your donors, whether it's a challenge you're having internally with your staff and your culture, and just in hybrid and remote environment.

[00:24:46] Kamilah: There are people out there who during this period have realized that this is my expertise. I'm going to zone in on that so that I can support organizations through these areas. So my suggestion is always to book. Budget a little bit for some external support. You don't know what's going to come up, but something [00:25:00] is going to come up and you want to be able, to quickly react to that challenge and need and potentially bring someone in who can support you through that as opposed to spinning your wheels for, four or five and six months when you can have someone who can help you figure something out in four or five or six weeks.

[00:25:15] Kamilah: and I think that's a lot of the difference between our nonprofit sector and The corporate sector, like they're quick to be like, let's bring someone to help us figure out this problem. Let's bring someone to help us think through this, and nonprofits are like, we can do it.

[00:25:27] Kamilah: We're going to figure it out. We have no budget, but I think it's with a little bit of forethought and planning. Even if you just set aside, honestly, if you're a small nonprofit, a few thousand dollars to be able to bring in someone for whatever challenge might come up for you, or whatever you want to just, get some outside perspective on, it doesn't have to be something you're dealing with it as a challenge, but it could just be someone who can bring,a broader perspective.

[00:25:49] Kamilah: of knowledge from all the people that, and organizations that they've worked with as a consultant or as a contractor. I think, my, I just like to encourage us in this time of transition to [00:26:00] recognize that there are people who really enjoy working that way and are really good at it, that can help you solve your challenges a lot quicker than you trying to figure them out on your own.

[00:26:10] Maria: I feel like that speaks to, how. We view money and how we view our own time and like the worth that we put on the, the time of nonprofit staff. So thanks for saying that. I think it's really important to prioritize the time. you have such skilled people in house who could be flying if they just had the right information and just getting that information from a consultant in, as you were saying, like four weeks versus four months.

[00:26:36] Maria: Is a huge difference. 

[00:26:37] Kamilah: Yeah. And I think it's a, again, a mental shift between, scarcity money mindset or whatever, like in our sector, we're all competing for dollars, right? unless you have some sort of larger revenue generating activities in your programming, that's going to help balance those things.

[00:26:51] Kamilah: But a lot of the way we're structured is that we are constantly, Yeah. begging, let's be real for support and philanthropy and individual donors. And that's [00:27:00] just a huge part of the operations that we run. and I think if we can get again out of our heads of, we don't have the money for that and instead shift into the, how can we find money for that?

[00:27:10] Kamilah: where can we move things around? Who can we ask that we haven't asked? What,audiences can we approach that we haven't approached for this sort of thing? that's the innovation that I'm talking about. That's. missing or reluctant, I would say in our sector, like we get there, but only after crazy things have happened and it's chaos.

[00:27:28] Kamilah: And, and I think we can innovate and we can do those sorts of things before we put that kind of burden and stress on our leaders, as well as those who are implementing the work. it's a mental shift in the way that I think we operate. 

[00:27:42] Maria: Oh, and I wanted to mention that.

[00:27:45] Maria: Because a lot of the examples that we've been talking about have been behind the scenes, but when it comes to innovation, you can actually also do it through your programming. And I have such a good example, because last week or the week before, I was talking to the CEO of a [00:28:00] food bank in Regina, the Regina Food Bank in Saskatchewan, and what they're doing is something called food transformation.

[00:28:08] Maria: So basically they have an excess of lentils and they don't want their community members just eating lentils all the time. that's boring for them. So they have a process where they send their excess of lentils to be turned into like homemade soup kits. And it's actually like repurposing something and being innovative with what you do have to make it into something that could be appealing to, other community members.

[00:28:32] Maria: So different way of eating lentils and putting ingredients together. but I thought that was a really interesting example because a lot of the time, Maybe programming is not the first place where people look to innovate. 

[00:28:44] Kamilah: What if we all had like an innovation days, like every quarter, where the team could just come together and, everything on the table, don't have to worry about money and just throw out ideas that people who are actually doing the implementation of the work, potentially invite some community members in and just, I know, like [00:29:00] It's hard to, as I'm saying, I'm like, we're not gonna do this because we're all so busy, right?

[00:29:05] Kamilah: But what if we just trained ourselves to have these R& D weeks or R& D periods or just innovation periods where we're just coming together and just having these bright ideas, right? And just, and seeing what works. I think, culturally within the organization, I think that's exciting. I think as long as you're, of course, not saying like you're going to come together and We're definitely going to implement every single one of these ideas like you don't want to do that and get people's hopes up and then have it go nowhere.

[00:29:29] Kamilah: But I think some really exciting and interesting ideas can come about, like you said, even from areas that you might not have even expected. And I think again, this is something that. Corporate does really well, like they, they have the areas of their offices where people just coming together and chit chatting.

[00:29:44] Kamilah: They have idea boards where people can write down messages on chalkboards or put posted notes that, get looked at every now and then. And it's the constant,push and the culture that's accepting of. Things being done differently that we're always trying to do things the same because we're [00:30:00] scared for whatever reason, for whether it's financially, whether it's capacity, we don't have people to do it, whatever it is in our sector, we're just so slow to change.

[00:30:09] Kamilah: and I think, I think there's an opportunity there for those who are able to think a little bit more entrepreneurially or just more innovative, innovatively. I keep saying that I don't know if it's a word, but,to do things a little bit different, to improve the work life, to improve the impact, and just to shift.

[00:30:26] Kamilah: It doesn't have to be done the way it's always been done. 

[00:30:30] Maria: I think when we're talking about fear, like we don't have the money or we're not going to do this, we don't have the time, like you just said. I think it, there's a real value to saying what if. And just getting curious, even if we don't implement every single idea, maybe we can't right now.

[00:30:44] Maria: Maybe that's two years down the line, but just like putting it out there on the table and just coming together to think creatively and to imagine. is so helpful to getting you out of the grind and hustle of everyday nonprofit work. 

[00:30:58] Kamilah: I believe it. And so [00:31:00] I sat on, so there was a woman in our nonprofit consultant community, Amalia Deloni.

[00:31:05] Kamilah: She, she has done futurist training. I don't know if you've heard of this, but I'd never heard of this, but in corporate there's entire arms of teams that are futurists on the team where they're planning. Not three, four, five years out, but they're looking like 50 years out and thinking big picture and thinking what if, and that is their job.

[00:31:26] Kamilah: That's how their brains are framed. There are their courses at universities. And I think degrees or certifications at universities that you can get to in futurist thinking. and that was so mind blowing to me that there are teams. within companies, Coca Cola, whatever, Nike that are futurists and are thinking about the future and innovation and what ifs, and we're just so on the grind of the day to day,trying our best to get those, 10, 20, 30 from, 

[00:31:54] Kamilah: I'm being pedantic, but like,I think we could really,[00:32:00] use a kind of an influx of that kind of thinking. And I think it has to happen at a leadership level because you're going to have again, you're talking about Jen. What are we? Gen Z coming in, wanting to do things differently, wanting to be disruptors, who've lived the life of chaos, economically and just politically and everything that are that, aren't really set in hell bent on doing things a certain way.

[00:32:21] Kamilah: So you're going to have that pushing up against the people that don't want to change. So until we get sort of leaders and people rising through the ranks that have that philosophy and way of thinking and way of existing and lack of fear, or even if there is fear and ability to look beyond that, to try something new.

[00:32:36] Kamilah: And like you said, think what if that's when the innovation is going to occur or else you're going to constantly run up with conflict again, generationally, With the leaders who are, again, older millennials, boomers, who am I? Gen X.with the people who really want to see things done differently and have no fear.

[00:32:54] Kamilah: That's what it is. they're like, we're gonna, we're gonna just ramp through and force it to change, and I'm [00:33:00] here for it to a certain extent. Like there, I think some nuances there that in the world of working that we're gonna have to try and navigate together intergenerationally. But I think there's so much opportunity for people who are able to figure it out and who are able to to get out of their way and experiment and explore to come up with the answer so that's the next way that we're going to be working in 10, 20 years.

[00:33:23] Maria: This has been such an exciting conversation.

[00:33:28] Maria: It's the idea of nonprofits living in the past, they're going to stay there. You gotta think ahead of even small things in your programming or in your HR or whatever it is. just think ahead. And 

[00:33:39] Kamilah: I would love whenever you post this, a question that I want to ask anyone who gets to this point in the conversation, what organizations are you seeing that are doing this?

[00:33:47] Kamilah: I would really love to elevate them and highlight them and learn from them. whatever conferences they need to attend to be able to be sharing their stories and their lessons learned. I think those are the ones that we need to be elevating and highlighting because they, [00:34:00] again, they're going to get us from here to there because it's already shifting.

[00:34:03] Kamilah: I, Who am I to say that? But I feel like it's already shifting. and the ones that are innovating, I really want to know who they are. And I really want us to elevate their case studies as folks that are doing something different, figuring it out, failing, iterating, trying again, learning and doing it well, so we can all learn from them.

[00:34:22] Maria: So if you know of anyone, send them my way. We'll have them on the podcast and hear what they're doing. So cool and exceptional. And then we can do it ourselves. Yes. Perfect.Kamilah, where can people find you if they want to continue the conversation? 

[00:34:36] Kamilah: Thank you. so I blabbed the most on LinkedIn, Kamilah Martin with the K my name's right there.

[00:34:42] Kamilah: just find me on LinkedIn. That's where I share most. I have a newsletter that you can sign up on Katalyst with the K consult. com. So Katalyst consult. com. 

[00:34:52] Maria: Thank you so much for being here today and for sharing your wisdom with our audience. 

[00:34:56] Kamilah: Thank you, Maria. It's great to be here. 

[00:34:59] Maria: And thank you all [00:35:00] for listening to this episode of the Small Nonprofit Podcast.

[00:35:03] Maria: As always, you can see our lovely faces on our YouTube channel. So if you want to follow along with the conversation and see, our hand gestures or anything like that, it is there for you. You can follow Kamilah based on the links below in the show notes. And until next time, we'll see you then. Bye for now.