Navigating Fractional Fundraising with Nina Horvath

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In this episode of The Small Nonprofit Podcast, Maria sits down with Nina Horvath, Executive Director of the Coastal Jazz and Blues Society. Nina shares her insights into the fractional fundraising model, the benefits it has brought to her organization, and the challenges faced in arts fundraising. Together, they explore how fractional fundraising offers smaller nonprofits access to high-level fundraising expertise without the challenges of hiring a full-time development director. 

Key Episode Highlights: 

• Exploring Fractional Fundraising

  What are the pros and cons of working with a Fractional Fundraiser?

  The financial and intangible results of working with Fractional Fundraisers at Further Together

Quotable Moments: 

• "The beauty of fractional fundraising is that you get the expertise you need at a fraction of the cost, which is perfect for small to mid-sized nonprofits"

  "As an ED, it can feel isolating. Having a fractional fundraiser who understands my challenges and offers valuable, outside perspective has been a personal and professional support"

  "We didn’t expect to double our individual giving in a year, but with a strategic approach and fresh ideas, we made it happen"

Actionable Tips: 

➜ Consider Outsourced Supports: If you’re a small to mid-sized nonprofit struggling to find a full-time development director, fractional fundraising could give you access to senior-level expertise without breaking the bank.

➜ Set Realistic Expectations: Don’t expect to raise a million dollars overnight. Success in fundraising is about building momentum and balancing both short-term wins and long-term goals.

➜ Leverage the Expertise of a Fractional Fundraiser: Fractional fundraisers work with multiple organizations, which allows them to offer fresh insights and best practices from across the nonprofit sector.

Connect with Us: 

• Connect with Maria 

• Connect with Nina 

• Coastal Jazz Website 

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Watch this episode on Youtube.

Coming Next Week: 

Join Maria as she discusses the future of work in the nonprofit sector with Kamilah Martin! 

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Maria: Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the Small Nonprofit Podcast. Today I'm here with a guest who I've actually had the pleasure of working with for just over a year through, Further Together. So I'm just really excited to introduce her to all of you. Hi, Nina. 

[00:00:15] Nina: Hi there. 

[00:00:16] Maria: Nina, can you tell us a little bit about what you do, who you are, just for anyone who's unfamiliar?

[00:00:21] Nina: Sure. 

[00:00:23] Nina: My full name is Nina Horvath, and I am the current executive director for the Coastal Jazz and Blues Society, and we are the producers of the Vancouver International Jazz Festival. We just wrapped up our 39th festival and heading over into our 40th year now. 

[00:00:40] Maria: I love that. I was thankful to visit the festival this past year.

[00:00:45] Maria: So that was really exciting. But how did you get into this role? Were you a non profit before? How long have you been a non profit? 

[00:00:54] Nina: So I actually started as a performer. All of my training is in classical [00:01:00] piano. I did a master's in that and then some extra time working as a freelance artist. And I did that for several years.

[00:01:09] Nina: I worked in Vancouver. I worked in Halifax for a while. Then at some point I really needed a change from freelancing and I was looking for new jobs in Vancouver and I actually began working with a choir in town called the Vancouver Bach Choir and I started doing operations for them and discovered that I really liked being behind the curtain so to speak and being able to produce events and work with program participants and I was pretty good at it too, and after a couple years doing operations I ended up as the executive director at the choir, and then after that I came to Coastal.

[00:01:46] Nina: So yeah, my path came from being a performing artist and ending up here somewhat by chance. So completely self taught in terms of [00:02:00] administration and leading organizations. 

[00:02:03] Maria: I feel like a lot of people end up a non profit by surprise. 

[00:02:06] Nina: Yeah. I think it's so funny. I think certainly most of the people who work at our organization right now, yeah, it didn't end up here necessarily by design, but we're drawn by the mission and, and often came from, a different background or came from a performing arts background.

[00:02:25] Nina: We have several of the people who work for us who come from being artists themselves. 

[00:02:32] Maria: And with you being, the leader of an arts organization right now, I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit about how COVID hit your funding or any other kind of experiences around that. 

[00:02:43] Nina: Yeah. So I was still with the choir when COVID happened and that was extremely difficult for us.

[00:02:51] Nina: that organization, we had seven different choirs starting from age five all the way to any age into adulthood. And when [00:03:00] COVID first started, certainly here on the West Coast, at least one of the very early events that happened was a super spreader event that happened at a choir just south of us in the States.

[00:03:12] Nina: And that was really early on, and it really vilified choirs and public singing So the early stages, all of a sudden this thing that we all did because we loved was like public enemy number one. So it was really scary and uncertain because we had no idea what the future held and if we would ever really be able to return to doing this thing that we loved in the same way.

[00:03:36] Nina: And we also had to learn incredibly quickly about how to do things online. And I can tell you right now, doing choir rehearsals in Zoom is not very easy and not very effective. Sounds painful.it is a challenge. It's not possible because of the lag. So we certainly had to become creative, which, had its own [00:04:00] benefits, but it also is really difficult and really learned very quickly how incredibly irreplaceable that in person connection in music making is.

[00:04:12] Nina: I know our instructors found it so difficult to be putting out all of this energy on Zoom and not being able to get it back from the participants. you're just staring at these screens of kids who may or may not be paying attention.and in terms of a funding perspective, I think BC where I live was particularly lucky in that the support from the province was quite good and we're, I'm still to this day, very grateful for how they supported us.

[00:04:43] Nina: most of us retained our funding during the early years of the pandemic, but weren't producing as much. So we actually end up with surpluses a lot of the time.

[00:04:52] Nina: And then what was more difficult has been like the last two to three years. Now that we've come back to producing events and you say, [00:05:00] okay, we have the surplus. We better use that. We did put an influx and reinvigorate this community and that's what it became more difficult because costs had all risen a lot of that support funding had gone away and audiences were slow to come back and to rebuild habits and we also are in a economic recession so everything hit all at once and so it's now started to become more and more challenging in the years since then, the real acute stage of the pandemic. 

[00:05:34] Maria: I have so much respect for EDs. It's crazy. 

[00:05:39] Maria: So one of the reasons I wanted to ask about, how COVID impacted your funding is because I've been working with you as a fractional fundraiser, right? So I'm wondering, what reasons Cause you to go look for a fractional fundraiser in the first place, or did you even were looking for fractional fundraising is new also.

[00:05:58] Maria: So what did that look like for you? [00:06:00] 

[00:06:00] Nina: So the context for this for Coastal Jazz is that I came in here in 2021. In the fall and we've had, we had TD for as a had title sponsor for about 18 years, and then at the end of that year we were told that the 2022 festival would be our final year with TD as a sponsor.

[00:06:21] Nina: nothing wildly dramatic about that. It was just a lot. Again, I think quite common that a lot of, staffing changed over the pandemic priorities of companies changed, and they said, we've had a great time working with you, but we're just moving on to different things. And, 18 years, like that's a pretty, pretty good run.

[00:06:39] Nina: So what that meant, that was a really large loss of revenue for us. And when we started to look at our revenue mix with that missing, we really identified that. In a perfect world, I would love our sort of balance of revenue to be more balanced, between corporate sponsorship, individual giving, ticket revenues for us, and [00:07:00] things like foundations and other bits and pieces.

[00:07:03] Nina: And our table legs were not very balanced. we had a really big one with corporate sponsorship and then some really small ones everywhere else. So that was a big thing that we identified early on is that we needed to start putting in earnest efforts to work towards balancing out those funding sources.

[00:07:22] Nina: And, so initially we did actually try and hire a director of development, which would have been, I think, November, 2022. So yeah. And we put out, I thought we put out a pretty competitive salary. We put out, what seemed like a compelling job description to me. And the response was.

[00:07:43] Nina: Very lukewarm. We did not get very many applicants for that job. And certainly the applicants that we did get were not really at the level that we would have hoped for as a, senior level development director. And so we decided not to hire anybody from that round and go back to the [00:08:00] drawing board.

[00:08:01] Nina: And, again, that's something that I heard from other people in town who were trying to hire at that time as well. And if you looked at the local job board for nonprofit, Practically every other job is like a director of development, director of development. Like nobody, everybody was hiring and nobody could find that.

[00:08:18] Nina: And so I think by the winter of that year, actually, I met another sort of local fundraiser, Kim Peterson, and she was starting on down this fractional path and she said she brought this up to me and I had never heard of it before. I knew nothing about it. And so she suggested that I look into this idea of fractional fundraisers.

[00:08:39] Nina: And I can't remember if she gave me your name or if Cindy gave me your name, but somebody along the line there suggested, uh, Maria's name and we met and chatted. And for us, it really felt like that was a good fit and I think it's a really smart move if you are, a nonprofit of that small to mid size.

[00:08:59] Nina: what [00:09:00] we learned from that whole process is that we just weren't able to provide a competitive enough salary to compete with, you know, your BC Children's Hospital, UBC, think big organizations like that, who really tend to attract the best fundraisers. So, you know, in this way, we were able to pay a fee that was manageable for us and find really senior level development experience.

[00:09:26] Nina: And, so we're a little over a year into this, almost a year and a half, and we've found that it's worked really well. 

[00:09:34] Maria: Ah, that was like such a journey. Just took me on. I'm like, oh my goodness. okay, where do I go? It's never a short answer for this. no. And it's great. It's just I feel like the pain of so many people who are trying to hire fundraisers and they just can't like a lot of people don't love to fundraise.

[00:09:54] Maria: They don't know how to do it. They're scared to do it. And, like I have another client who [00:10:00] they were hiring for six months and the salary they had posted was like 140, 000. And they still couldn't find a senior enough person to take the role. 

[00:10:12] Nina: Yeah, it's just, it's, there's not, so I mean, if you're looking out there for career folks, there's need for fundraisers, absolutely.

[00:10:23] Nina: and yeah, I've,my whole career so far has been in smaller non profits, and it certainly was a challenge for us also at The Bach Choir is to be able to find somebody who has the necessary skill set, but is willing to work with a smaller organization.

[00:10:41] Maria: And by smaller, I feel like we're looking at like less than 10 million usually, but That's still a huge range for organizations, like anywhere from a million to 10 million versus a hospital that maybe has like billions, 

[00:10:55] Nina: in, arts nonprofits and specifically music nonprofits [00:11:00] are All right.

[00:11:00] Nina: The most historically underfunded out of all of the branches of non profit, we really do a lot with a little. And so it's just, it is really difficult to find people to work with, with organizations like ours. 

[00:11:17] Maria: For those kind of unfamiliar with the concept of fractional fundraising, can you explain what it is and how it's different from traditional fundraising roles?

[00:11:25] Nina: my take on it is that in a literal sense, we are receiving a fraction of your time. We don't have you as a full time employee. you're not an employee with our organization. You don't work on site. but we're getting the level of expertise that we need, we're paying you a fee, but you're also able to work for other organizations.

[00:11:45] Nina: we get the services that we need and you as an individual as the fractional fundraiser are also able to, earn the wages that you need to survive in this world. 

[00:11:55] Maria: Nice. Yeah, that sounds great. I love that. Yeah, I like that [00:12:00] too. Yeah. Yeah, I think that works. Yeah, and it's worked really well for you and I, which has been really nice.

[00:12:06] Maria: how did it feel when we had been working together and then you actually hired a full time person had that kind of disrupt things for you? Or was it? More in tandem what did that look like 

[00:12:18] Nina: it was more in tandem for us we settled a contract with you guys in March and then by the end of April we'd hired like an in house individual giving manager And I find that works well for us.

[00:12:32] Nina: because we're in different cities, it's really nice for us to have somebody who is here in person and who can manage some of the day to day things, some of the day to day stewardship, and also who has the time to connect more in person with a lot of our donors. I think that's been a good model for us so far.

[00:12:52] Nina: And part of it too for us has been about also, providing mentorship for that person to have senior [00:13:00] leadership there for them so that they can build their skills as well. And, eventually grow into somebody who can have like a director of development role themselves.

[00:13:09] Maria: I'd love to talk a little bit about like the pros and cons, right? Sometimes people like they really want someone that can be on site every single day. And there's a lot of benefit to that, of course. but from your perspective, what were the biggest cons of working with a fractional fundraiser? 

[00:13:28] Nina: I think before starting it, I was maybe concerned about not having somebody who lived in the same city, but I think we found that hasn't posed a big problem.

[00:13:39] Nina: We also have paid to bring you guys out twice now for some of our major events. And we've, we've just worked that into our budget. And, again, if you consider that it's still less cost for us than a full time development director to, to cover that it still works out, in my opinion, I think.

[00:13:58] Nina: it's certainly something we've [00:14:00] maybe had to educate our board or our members on as well as to why this person is in Toronto and not here all the time and what exactly are they doing wait, but wait, don't you have this person who works here? And then what are those two do? Like, why are they here too?

[00:14:18] Nina: So I think there's been a level of education for people.

[00:14:25] Nina: I think, again, I don't know if it's a con necessarily, but I think where we've maybe had to invest more time is in just, some education for you as well. And teaching you what working with the music nonprofit is and the sort of particular quirks of our audience and what works for them, what doesn't, because, I think you're going to come in often with a sort of tried and true,Method and formula and a lot of that does work, but I know I've pushed back against that a few times where, I feel like it feels too formulaic.

[00:14:55] Nina: I've been like, no, we can't put this out because people will won't [00:15:00] react well to that. it has to have our personal touch and our tone and flavor to it. but that's something that we've all adapted to. And I think that also would be a growing pain with anybody coming into an organization. 

[00:15:11] Maria: I think that's why I like this model so much too, because there is some ownership on both parts.

[00:15:16] Maria: Like it's not just a consultant is going to come in and fix all my problems, and then they leave and take all those skills and knowledge with them. But it is like a partnership, which I really value. 

[00:15:28] Nina: I think pros, I actually like the fact that you guys work for different organizations.

[00:15:33] Nina: I think they puts you in a unique position because you have get to have a much more bird's eye view of the sector and see what's working somewhere else, or maybe it's not working or, being aware of what's developing. And I think maybe it forces you maybe to be more. adaptable with your skills as well, and to be constantly learning and growing, I think, so that to me is certainly [00:16:00] valuable.

[00:16:00] Nina: I've certainly never had any issues with, availability from working with you guys. It's always available to talk about something really quickly or to run an idea by. It's been a really great resource for me as an executive director from a personal standpoint. Which is not something I was expecting and not something that, I don't, I feel like that's almost a bonus service.

[00:16:25] Nina: It's not really what I'm paying for, but I will say it has been for me very helpful as an ED where things can get so isolating to have somebody who's connected with the organization, but also still like a step away. So if there's things that I have been frustrated with, it's been a safe space for me to, vent those frustrations and to, again, also have a valuable perspective because you've worked through, multiple other EDs and orgs.

[00:16:49] Nina: You can say, oh yeah, like we've seen this in every org we've worked with or, you know, this is what worked maybe at this other place when they went through this same stumbling block. And so that's [00:17:00] been really helpful for me. that's been a tremendous personal value. and just, yeah, and I'm, and like part of the, The reason that we went with Further Together is that, we also were really trying to find fundraisers.

[00:17:14] Nina: Who understood community centric fundraising, and that certainly was something when we did a local search that we found was we had a hard time finding. We didn't, people, in job interviews again, when we asked people that. Like a lot of people still didn't know what that was. And it was important for us as we evolve, like our own values as an organization to have fundraising that was rooted in that.

[00:17:42] Maria: Yeah. That's definitely very close to my heart and everything that we do. I love that you touched on the personal element as well. Cause that's something that I hear from a lot of my clients, like being like. Not to make you my therapist, but X, Y, and Z, right? Like it's just, you don't have that peer [00:18:00] network of executive directors.

[00:18:01] Maria: And even if you do, they're also exhausted. They're also going through some things. So I've heard a lot from people like, I can't talk to my staff about this because I don't want them to freak out. And I can't talk to my board about it because they don't get it. 

[00:18:15] Nina: Definitely. Yeah. And you're right. that's part of it too.

[00:18:17] Nina: And sometimes you're like, I can't go to other EDs about this. Cause yeah, I don't want to burden them with it either. It is, it's been, yeah, it's been really valuable for me. And it's, I think, yeah, again, like not to set an expectation that you're getting, you're going to get free therapy if you hire a fractional fundraiser, please no, please.

[00:18:41] Nina: Yeah. Still seek that out on your own, but yeah, it's just, it's, been really nice to have that opportunity to say Oh, what's bothering you? Or if you need to talk through something, just like book some time with me and it's totally okay for you to come and say,just vent for a little bit.

[00:18:57] Nina: And I certainly, I've had a couple, I definitely had [00:19:00] a couple of little mini meltdowns. And it's been really nice to have somebody to be there, be like, it's okay. We got it. you're in a really hard position. 

[00:19:09] Maria: I also wanted to ask you a little bit about the return on investment because some organizations like they're starting in different spots when it comes to fractional fundraising.

[00:19:17] Maria: Some come to me and they're like, I need to raise a million dollars by next week. And I'm saying like, that's not the most realistic. I don't even know anyone in your database just yet. Do you even have a database? So what has the return on investment look like for your organization? 

[00:19:34] Nina: Yeah. Definitely that has been something that I have had to justify with our board a couple times or not justify just make sure that we are setting realistic expectations because, we've had fundraisers at Coastal in the past, who have done well and have, been good at stewarding the community.

[00:19:53] Nina: I think what our challenge was is that we had a lot of turnover in those roles. And again, maybe [00:20:00] previous iterations of our board also had unrealistic expectations that put too much stress on those people and unfortunately caused turnover in those positions. So that's something I've certainly been very aware about.

[00:20:11] Nina: so we've just finished our first like full fiscal year with Further Together on board and we doubled our individual giving revenue in this past year from the previous year. So. We're very happy with that. I think, yeah, the question I still get pressed on a lot from a board perspective is that cost per dollar raised.

[00:20:34] Nina: And because, we have an in house person and we're hiring consultants, it's still is not like super positive. But again, for us, if you look at the progression that we've done for me, I think the first year that I came into the org, I think we raised around 5, 000. 50 and then the next year was like, just over 60.

[00:20:55] Nina: And then this year, again, like I said, we quite close to around 120. So we're [00:21:00] very happy with the positive trend of those results. And I think there's also intangibles there that aren't measured in the dollar amount. So, you know, things like the fact that we've started receiving some more major gifts from people.

[00:21:15] Nina: We just received like our first like really major gift in a few years, which is a really big win for us. The way that we've been able to increase the community engagement and the way that we've been able to educate our community base and our donors is something that we weren't doing as consistently before.

[00:21:33] Nina: And, because we've had a largely dormant donor base for many years, I do think it's been a little bit of a longer progression, perhaps than it might be for some other organization. So I think we've just been trying to be realistic about that, but in general, very happy with how it goes. And yeah, I can't complain about that.

[00:21:55] Nina: Doubling in a year. 

[00:21:59] Maria: I'm also very happy [00:22:00] with a hundred percent. Yeah, I think so.it really depends on like where you're starting from, but also something that really makes the most like successful fractional fundraising clients is like how adaptable you are in house as well. Cause if I can say like, Hey, your communications person is sinking your ship, like they are horrible.

[00:22:21] Maria: And if you don't get rid of them, then it's going to limit what we do, what we're able to accomplish within that time period. for you, you've always been very willing to try something new and see if it hit. Like, for example, when we did the direct mail campaign. Yep. That was new. Yeah. Or, we did a 50 50 as well.

[00:22:40] Maria: That was new, right? Yeah. you've always been very, willing to try new things. And I think that that's what, that's what we're Gets people the furthest when it comes to fundraising because some people might just be like, I don't even want to try that. 

[00:22:51] Nina: Yeah,I think, again, we were starting from pretty minimal activity, or, activity that had been dormant, and, coming through the [00:23:00] pandemic, for us, some orgs really, pushed giving, individual giving in the early pandemic, and ours took a step back from that, actually.

[00:23:07] Nina: I think we didn't want to, Burden our community at the time. And because we still, we were getting good money from sponsors and we weren't spending it. It was like, okay, why should we be asking for money from the community right now?it's taken a little while to wake people up to the reality that we do need their support.

[00:23:23] Nina: And yeah, I think you always have to try new things, andit's not like we're trying things without thinking them through. We certainly assess whether we think it's a worthwhile, expenditure and we try it out and, and some of it's worked and some of it hasn't. 

[00:23:42] Maria: Yeah. Like it's very strategic.

[00:23:43] Maria: It's not just like throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks. It's like the decision based on everything that we know about the organization and the donor base. And we'll try it, see if it goes well or not. Yeah, one of the things I also like about working with different clients is [00:24:00] like I'm able to see when something works for you and doesn't work for a different organization.

[00:24:04] Maria: And then I hear them say something like donor fatigue, and I'm like, that's not true.I don't have, if I just worked at one organization, I might believe it, and I'd be like, oh, yeah, maybe, but, I'm seeing it at a different organization. It's like, no, that's not true.

[00:24:16] Maria: Something is up. Let's investigate, 

[00:24:19] Nina: Yeah, I think, again, like having that perspective of multiple organizations is, yeah, it's, you've got your own sort of built in data testing, basically, which is pretty great. 

[00:24:33] Maria: Nina, what would you say to a leader, an executive director who might be considering this model?

[00:24:38] Maria: what questions should they ask themselves? What should they arm themselves with against their board? Wait, what do you think are the considerations 

[00:24:45] Nina: there? Sure.

[00:24:46] Nina: Yeah, I'm trying to think of some of the questions we asked to, coming into this process. I think,and you guys do a good job of this, too. You need to set clear expectations and understanding of what [00:25:00] the capacity of a fractional fundraiser is versus what needs to be done by you in house.

[00:25:05] Nina: Don't go into it expecting that you can just dump all of the fundraising into their lap and then, say, okay, bye. it's your problem now. You still as an organization need to be putting in effort to it and supporting that effort for sure. I think again, like asking, if you're values aligned and that's really important too.

[00:25:28] Nina: I think being realistic about the goals that you set, like you said, If you're not going to go from 100, 000 to 1, 000, 000 raised in a year. That's just not realistic. Yeah.be realistic and, prepare for measured growth. Yeah, I think the values are really important.

[00:25:51] Nina: I think there's maybe less need than I may have originally thought for some, I think for a long time I would have wanted a fundraiser who really had, lived experience [00:26:00] in the music world. And while that can be useful, I think as long as, your fractional fundraisers are curious and open to learning about your community and that world, then I think there's, You'll be fine.

[00:26:12] Nina: They don't necessarily need to have exact lived experience in that particular sector.

[00:26:22] Maria: I feel like sometimes even as a, consultant, it's I don't know much about, one of my clients was hip hop, right? I don't know much about hip hop. Like, how do I meaningfully represent this organization and its service users and its community?

[00:26:34] Maria: that curiosity piece is really important. 

[00:26:37] Nina: Yeah, be open, be curious. And, and again, like you need staff on your end who are also open to being there and answering questions and showing them what's going on. And yeah, and I think if you can, as an organization have the budget to bring the people out to experience the event.

[00:26:56] Nina: I think, that's going to be. [00:27:00] always is going to be so much more effective than me trying to explain it to you over a zoom call. 

[00:27:05] Maria: Absolutely. And then going out in,like two months ago or whenever it was, to the festival was great. Cause then you get to see all the opportunities that You wouldn't even see if you're not a fundraiser.

[00:27:17] Nina: Yeah, definitely. Oh yeah, I know. when you and Esther were there, like I think you both had the notes that were pages and pages long of everything that you saw. We're like, Oh, maybe we can do this. Maybe we can do this. I don't think I would have ever seen those things myself. And because I'm not looking for that, right?

[00:27:35] Nina: Like I'm there doing other things. So it was really helpful to do that. And, you know, and also for us, like we wanted you there to celebrate with us and to meet the community and because we're proud of what we do, we want to show that off. 

[00:27:47] Maria: So awesome! Ah, Nina, thank you so much for being here today.

[00:27:52] Maria: If people want to continue the conversation with you, how can they get in touch? 

[00:27:57] Nina: Yeah, I think the best way to get in touch with me is through [00:28:00] LinkedIn. You can find me on there, Nina Horvath. yeah. I'll give Maria the info so she can put it in the, in a chat and you can find my last name that way. but yeah, that's probably the easiest way to reach out to me.

[00:28:11] Maria: Great. So I'll definitely link that in the show notes and thank you again. This has been really great. And I'm hoping that this has eased some of the concerns that people might have about the model or just seeing how it could work. Cause some people haven't even heard of it before. 

[00:28:26] Nina: Yeah, I think if you're yeah, if you're still uncertain,again, there's no harm in having a conversation checking it out.

[00:28:32] Nina: And, again, I think it's a really valuable model. I like the equity of it, it's a really valuable model for small and mid sized nonprofits. Because we get where we need at an affordable price for our budgets and you as a fundraiser also get to have a sustainable career, which I think is really great.

[00:28:55] Maria: Okay, great. Well, if you want to get in touch with Nina, you can follow that link in the [00:29:00] show notes. But for now, thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Small Nonprofit Podcast. As always, if you want to see our lovely faces, you can see this episode on YouTube. And if you're interested in any aspect of fractional fundraising, I'm more than happy to chat, go further together. ca. But that's it for today. Thank you so much for tuning in and until next time, bye for now.