From Burnout to Breakthrough: Reclaiming Your Energy with Kishshana Palmer
Subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify
Do you ever feel like your passion for nonprofit work has wilted? Are you constantly exhausted, overwhelmed, and struggling to find the motivation to keep going?
You're not alone. In this episode, Kishshana Palmer and I dive into the pervasive issue of burnout in the nonprofit sector. We explore its causes, its impact on our work and well-being, and most importantly, practical strategies to reclaim your energy, passion, and joy.
Kishshana, an expert in leadership and organizational development, shares her insights on self-care, setting boundaries, and finding your "sit in the sun" moments. We discuss the importance of prioritizing rest, nutrition, exercise, and reconnecting with activities that bring you joy. This episode is a must-listen for any nonprofit leader who wants to break free from the cycle of burnout and create a more sustainable, fulfilling career.
Don’t forget to become a supporter of our show!
Key Episode Highlights:
Recognize and name your burnout: Acknowledging your exhaustion is the first step towards addressing it. Don't be afraid to say, "I'm tired," and seek support from your colleagues, friends, or a therapist.
Prioritize self-care: Make time for rest, nutritious food, exercise, and activities that bring you joy. Even small acts of self-care can make a big difference in your energy levels and well-being.
Learn to say no: Set boundaries with yourself and others. It's okay to decline requests that don't align with your priorities or that would overextend your capacity.
Reconnect with your passions: Rediscover activities that brought you joy in your youth. These can be a source of renewal and inspiration.
Find your "sit in the sun" moments: Identify activities that help you relax and recharge. This could be reading, spending time in nature, or simply sitting in the sun and enjoying the warmth.
Don’t forget to become a supporter of our show!
Watch this episode on Youtube: https://youtu.be/UwHH4L2AIT8
Links and Resources:
Connect with Kishshana Palmer on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kishshanapalmer/
Check out the website: https://www.managemint.co/
The Sticky Teams on-demand training: https://kishshana-co-inc.ck.page/6f9565b1c6
Connect with Maria on LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mariario/
Support the show: https://www.buzzsprout.com/208666/supporters/new
Transcript:
00:00:00 Kishshana: When did I learn that it was not okay to say no to myself? And honestly, we learned that in school. You're taught, depending on where you grew up, right? In the US education system, if you're in public school, typically you're taught to follow directions. All the ducks have to walk in the road, that's why the little kids have to walk in a line, hold hands behind them and in front of them, speak at the same time, sit, stand, lunch.
00:00:21 Kishshana: So you're turning into a robot little by little. And so if you notice, if you ever notice a little kid who's like, I don't wanna do that, what are they seen as? A troublemaker, not that they are autonomous or they may have a really good little kid reason why they wanna do something, but they're causing trouble.
00:00:37 Maria: Hi friends. Ever wondered how you could turn your big ideas into results? I'm Maria Rio, your go-to guide for helping small nonprofits have real world impacts. Together, let's reimagine a better sector, tackle systemic issues, and yes, raise some serious cash. Welcome back to The Small Nonprofit, the podcast where your passion meets action.
00:01:07 Maria: Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the Small Nonprofit Podcast. I'm really excited to be sharing some new additional insights with you with a really amazing speaker. So you probably already know about her, but I'll just let her introduce herself, Kishshana. Welcome.
00:01:24 Kishshana: Hey, hi. Thank you so much for having me. I'm Kishshana Palmer, CEO of Management, where we put a fresh take on management and leadership. We exist for the sole purpose of making sure that everyday leaders, just like you, have the opportunity to live well so that you can lead well. And I'm just excited to be here. That's what I talk about all day, every day. And so today, I feel like we're going to get into some juicy stuff.
00:01:51 Kishshana: I am a Queens girl, Queens New York, born and raised. I am a first-gen American. My family is from the Caribbean. I am first in family to go to college. I became chief executive at the tender age of 21 and spent my entire career in the C-suite, which I think is a little bit unique to some professional's careers and have dedicated my life to making sure that Black and brown women globally have easier runway to be able to lead with the gifts that they were born with and to be able to be healthy while doing it.
00:02:22 Maria: I love that. Okay. I feel like so much of what you said inspires a thousand questions. Well, let's start with the... Let's start with the one that I'm like, what? Okay, C-suite at 21. That is nuts. Was that in nonprofit or what did that look like for you?
00:02:38 Kishshana: I started in investment banking and when I left grad school, so I was one of those nerdy kids who.. I did my MBA and my bachelor of science together. So I got my MBA when I was 20 to 21. And then I went into my first role where I was initially a grant writer. And so I remember going into my CEO's office and being like, you know, I don't know if I'm meant to be behind a desk. These clothes are so nice and no one is gonna see them. The CEO allowed me to be obnoxious and said, well, go out and figure out what you wanna do.
00:03:10 Kishshana: So I started out really thinking about project management and how to help executive directors move their books from being in the red and only focusing on raising money to keep their staff employed and thinking about it from the perspective of outcomes. And so I did that job. And then I got recruited for a maternity home in Charlotte, North Carolina, where I stepped into the chief development officer role for the very first time. And then I really kind of leaned into managing intergenerational teams.
00:03:41 Kishshana: So between that 21, 23 time period, but I always sat on the leadership team. So once you're in that sort of chief development officer spot, whether you know what you're doing or not, you have to figure it out. And I had the gift of working both at a large decentralized agency when I started my career in nonprofit work to then being able to shift to smaller organizations that were local. And so I knew how to do all the things because I had to do all the things. Title be damned.
00:04:07 Maria: And then so how did management come around?
00:04:10 Kishshana: So I, my actual company, was Kishshana and Co for the longest time, probably since like 2012, 2013. And I realized that people didn't know that I actually have a team of amazing consultants who some are still full time in their development or their marketing roles at their organizations. And so this is something they do just to kind of keep themselves fresh, which I love. And some who have transitioned in here are coming onto the team full time. But I'm the face and people are like, well, if it's not you, then who? And I'm like, but there's like all these things.
00:04:41 Kishshana: So I decided it's not about me. At the end of the day, my charge is to create space for healthier living so that we can work in a much healthier, more powerful way. We spend so much time at work. And I said, we have all these conversations about management, about leadership, and it's all, for lack of a better word, like white, cis, male-centered and focused information. And I don't know about you, but I am not a white, cis male. That's just not how I identify in the world.
00:05:12 Kishshana: And so I said, what if I learned the rules, which I know, and then I just break them? And if I redesign for folks who look like me, who show up in the world like me, who have lived experiences similar to mine, that I'm automatically designing for everybody. So that's kind of how management came to be. We just do it differently. We don't care, we're unapologetic about making sure we have healthy humans who are helping to activate, amplify, and accelerate mission.
00:05:40 Maria: You know, it's kind of, like I hate the idea of this, but being yourself is such a brave thing to be in our sector. They just encourage you to conform and to just be quiet. And like, being yourself is almost like a radical act of self-love and like anti-capitalism. And I love it. Okay, so let's talk about the leaders that you're currently working on or working with, maybe. So what does that look like? What are the problems that you're helping them solve? What are the problems that you're seeing in the sector? Any anything there?
00:06:15 Kishshana: So some of the things that are like jumping out to me, and I'm sure this is not going to come as a surprise to you, Maria, but is the fatigue that has turned to apathy. I'm so darn tired that I can barely keep track of myself. Like, I literally cannot keep up with myself. And I don't really want to keep up with anybody else either. But wait a minute, that's my job. But wait a minute, that's what I'm supposed to be passionate about. But wait a minute, people are looking at me to care. I just kind of don't.
00:06:47 Kishshana: So what do you do when you just kind of don't? And so one of the things that I'm seeing right now is that folks are really... They're not just seeking action. First, they're seeking language. How do I name the deep fatigue, the sort of apathy that I'm leaning into that I'm worried about, that I'm scared of, that I'm like, ugh, I don't even know myself? Or folks are shedding all of their people-pleasing, help everyone, do everything to the detriment of myself.
00:07:14 Kishshana: And if you haven't had that experience, let's say your family, for example, experienced you as the one who always shows up first and leaves last, you always have the plea. You always bring the chairs. And then you all of a sudden show up again. And now you're like, eh, I'ma get there at nine when the party starts at six. You know, I'ma leave early. I'm only popping my head in for an hour. They're looking at you crazy. Like, what? Who are you? So we're having that kind of mashup, right?
00:07:42 Kishshana: That paradox that we're holding. Either folks are like, it's a whole new me, or is it the real me? And other folks are like, I don't even know who I am right now. I just need to nap. So that's kind of what I'm seeing as big like we're saying it, but we're not saying it, that's happening right now in our sector.
00:07:56 Maria: And when you're talking about like feeling exhausted, I just feel like that's so relatable to so many people in the sector. And for me, how that shows up like, yeah, sometimes it can be apathy. Sometimes it could be like hopelessness or like helplessness. Like I don't really know how to move things forward. And other times it could be like feeling more irritable and like angry. Like why are things so dysfunctional, why is everything depending on me in the situation, right? So..
00:08:25 Kishshana: Exactly.
00:08:27 Maria: Yeah. How do you, how do you support people through that? Like if our audience members are feeling that way, how can they help themselves?
00:08:35 Kishshana: So for the free 99, I have a whole wellness series on my podcast management made easy that I did last summer that really spoke to the fatigue. And you know, I try to speak from a place of my own experience. I'm a new empty nester, but I've been a solo mama for my whole adult life. And so I spoke to the caregivers and the caretakers. You don't have to be a parent, but there are lots of us who are taking care of our parents or we're the family bank or we're the one that everybody calls or we're that friend who always shows up.
00:09:00 Kishshana: And folks are just tired. It was going through the new school year and I said, God. So if you want to start there, start with my wellness series because that's, you can just walk and listen to that. And so I want to encourage folks to pause even for 60 seconds and then I want you to move. And what I mean by that is, I want you to get outside, no matter where you are in the country, in the world, get that fresh air into your body.
00:09:25 Kishshana: Get that, look up and get that sunshine in your face. You would be amazed at just how much I've taken that moment for yourself just to go check the mail, but walk a little further than your mailbox will do for you. So that you can start to have a moment of recess. So those are those micro kind of like wellness moments. So I think start there. If they're working with me, any of my clients will tell you, if they have done coaching work with me, advice work with me, I get in their business.
00:09:50 Kishshana: So we start with how are you eating? How are you sleeping? What's your environment at home like? Are there plants? Are there people? Are there pets? Now, Kishshana, you want to know all that? Yes, because everywhere you go, there you are. And if your home life is a hot mess, goodness forbid if you are working completely remote or even worse, hybrid, because then you can't find your left and your right, then how are you going to be able to be centered and be present when you actually have to step in front of your team or work alongside your colleagues or talk with donors or deal with the operations or facilities or work with our young people. Do you see where I'm going with that? So like, you gotta step, you gotta talk to you first.
00:10:28 Maria: I love how you ask them about like what they're eating, what they're sleeping, how they're sleeping. Cause that's the kind of stuff that I talk about to my therapist, right? I'm like, okay, like I don't have time to eat. I don't have time to sleep. I like I'm really stressed out like I am not being my best self in my friendships or relationships or X, Y, and Z. But then on top of that, which they are an expert at, they can help me with that. They don't understand anything to do with fundraising.
00:10:54 Maria: So I have to explain like, oh, boards are like this and community-centric fundraising means this and like, why this person asking me to put on an accident was offensive because of this, you know, so there's so much like teaching, but I think like having that information already and that knowledge already to then ask like, okay, are you sleeping? Are you eating? Here's how we can make those better. Because you actually understand the sector.
00:11:18 Kishshana: I actually do. And I've lived it. Right. And I think that there's an additional layer to identifying as a woman. I think there's an additional layer to identifying as a black woman. I think there's an additional layer to being a kid of an immigrant. Right. You already come with those narratives that are inside your head about success and about performance and about pressure and about being proud. All of the things are just like, they're darn overwhelming. And I don't care if you came from with a silver or a platinum spoon growing up, regardless of how you grew up in the world.
00:11:49 Kishshana: Fundraising activities are a whole different beast because you have to confront your own story and your own relationship with money. You have to confront your own story and your own relationship with family, with trust. Right? So before you can step out and ask someone to walk alongside you, particularly for taking a more community centered approach, that's a walk alongside you. That's not an, oh my God, but not without you. That should be inherent without each other.
00:12:21 Kishshana: But before you can even step forward into that kind of, what I think is common sense, but bold conversation, you gotta know yourself. You gotta check in with you. And many of us are busy to the point where we're not checking in with ourselves. And so, when we work in organizations on retreats, for example, we do restorative retreats. Remember, tell me how many times you've gone on a team retreat for the fundraising team, and you know it's supposed to be a retreat, which means to step back, pause, hold.
00:12:53 Kishshana: What do we do? Forward plan, look at the numbers, come up with prospecting, who can we call? There's like work. Hello, there's nothing restorative about that. There's no brain break. There's no collegiality. There's no opportunity for human connection, which is what you need to be people powered, community centric, to be thinking about the social safety net. So we have to really recalibrate ourselves to the humaneness of what we do and to remind ourselves that money is a tool. That's it.
00:13:26 Maria: I love what you're saying about retreats being restorative and like having this opportunity to come together and actually connect. Cause I feel like many of our in-person things. Like if you go to a panel, if you go to whatever, like icon or something like that, it's people talking at you. And there's not a lot of opportunity to think differently or talk things out together.
00:13:47 Maria: Yes, you can network while you're having lunch, right? But sessions where we're meant to come together to improve the sector, to improve our practices, to do this better. Like we don't actually get to communicate or enjoy those spaces.
00:14:02 Kishshana: At all. And everything feels like a rush. And for many of us, particularly for those of us who have worked in small non-profit organization, if we even get an opportunity to go to a conference, to attend a summit, to travel outside of our local area, and we don't have to be reimbursed, then everybody wants to know, well, what was the return on investment? How about the return on investment was rest? How about the return on investment was I got to see something else?
00:14:26 Kishshana: I got to listen to other people. I got to understand things that are beyond me and actually put it into practice because I'm alongside other practitioners. So really, like the education that fundraisers in particular have to do internally with their counterparts, their peers, and then semi-internally with board members who are volunteers, who this is not their day job. To externally, to donor partners, to investors, to other stakeholders who think that this is happening by magic.
00:14:59 Maria: I think it's really interesting because I feel like there's such an extractive relationship between nonprofit managers and their staff.
00:15:05 Kishshana: Yep.
00:15:06 Kishshana: That then, I don't know, for me, maybe it gets kind of internalized, like do the most. Like if you are not doing the most, then like if someone gets fired, because we don't hit that fundraising metric, it's your fault. You know, like you have to really, and maybe it comes back to being a person of color, being a woman, being an immigrant, like all those things, like where you have these additional narratives. But then you have this additional like if you don't work the hardest, you don't care, right? Or you're not making the difference that you actually want.
00:15:35 Kishshana: That's right. And that's where so one of them writing a book. So one of the things that I am talking about in my books, busy is a four letter word, and it is all about doing less to achieve more. And the thing that stood out to me about 2015, 2016, I love to make up words. I come from a family where my mom makes up words all the time. So like Splendorific, Splendaloscious. And so I said, this feels a lot like margaritis, like it's a disease. Like we just want people to know, look at me. I am so tired. I am doing all the things. I'm the only one who's at the office. And maybe consciously, you don't start out that way.
00:16:14 Kishshana: But if you spend role after role after organization after organization with this like, do it until it hurts and then do it some more. As a way to be validated, to be seen, to think that the work you're doing is important, to justify the pennies you're being paid, then of course we're gonna end up performing, being a martyr. Hello, we've been practicing for the job.
00:16:38 Maria: But how do you move away from that? Because like, I remember sitting at a conference and Paul Taylor was speaking, he's a local leader. And I asked him like, Paul, you do so many billions of things. I see how many things you're doing as an executive director, as now a business owner, as someone who was running for office. Like, how do you do that? And like, how do you like stay sane and like say no to things?
00:16:59 Kishshana: Yes.
00:17:00 Maria: And, you know, make time for yourself and your family and the things that you want to do. And he's like, I just say no. And I'm like, Oh, it sounds so easy, but in practice.
00:17:11 Kishshana: And practice is darn hard. Let's call it what it is. Okay. So the hardest note to say is to yourself. And that's one of the things that I'm gonna be kind of flushing on the book. Like, when did I learn that it was not okay to say no to myself? And honestly, we learned that in school. You're taught, depending on where you grew up, right? In the US education system, if you're in public school, typically you're taught to follow directions. All the ducks have to walk in the road, that's why the little kids have to walk in a line, hold hands behind them and in front of them, speak at the same time, sit, stand, lunch.
00:17:41 Kishshana: So you're turning into a robot little by little. And so if you notice, if you ever noticed a little kid who's like, I don't want to do that, what are they seen as? A troublemaker. Not that they are autonomous, or they may have a really good little kid reason why they want to do something, but they're causing trouble. So really early on we learned saying no means to cause trouble. And I am the oldest girl, oldest child in a Caribbean family. Saying no is not allowed. You need to self-sacrifice until self-sacrifice becomes a part of your middle name.
00:18:10 Kishshana: And that is both stated and unstated. So now you're getting it at school. So some of us were getting it at home. And then you go into the work environment and we go into the type of career that saying no is frowned upon. Holy moly. So how the heck do you get out? We're in a prison, we don't even know we're in. So starting with learning to say no to yourself. No, Kishshana, you are not going to accept another meeting. You need to eat. No, I'm not gonna be able to attend that happy hour after work, I'm nervous.
00:18:40 Kishshana: You need to go for a walk. See how you feel when you come back from your walk, right? Like starting to say no to yourself, to small things that put you out on a ledge you know you don't wanna be on. If you can't get the hang of that, notice I didn't say master that, right? Then you are not going to get to a place where you can say no to others. You just aren't, there's too much conditioning. And so re-teaching yourself, unlearning that no is a bad word for everybody, for you, but not for anybody else. Cause people will tell us now all the time, is part of the work that we've got to do.
00:19:15 Maria: You know, now that you're saying that, it kind of rephrases it in my own mind. Like I'm like, I can't go for a walk. It's too much energy, you know, but it's like, no, Maria, like you already said that too many times. Like now you have to, like I'm saying no, instead of not saying no.
00:19:31 Kishshana: Say yes to yourself, right? Yes. So, oh my God, Maria, can't go for a walk, it's too much energy. You're like, oh my God, Maria, go for a walk because you're going to have so much energy, right?
00:19:40 Maria: It's true.
00:19:42 Kishshana: Think of just the reframing of that simple thing. You just gave to yourself. You know what it's like to be outside just for a quick thing. You're like, hmm. You're looking around, you're nosy, your arms are moving. If you're lucky like me, you got a good podcast or you got a good song you want to listen to. Or some of us, we just need darn silence because our house is full and our jobs are full and we just would like to finally hear our own thoughts.
00:20:02 Kishshana: Do that for a good 20 minutes. No time to say out. 20 minutes. You come back refreshed. Even if you then decide you don't want to do other things, or even if you then decide you don't want to say, you want to say no to things, it's with a clear head.
00:20:14 Maria: Yeah, absolutely.
00:20:17 Kishshana: She may want to challenge you to try that, Maria. I'm going to text you and say, hello, did you give yourself a walk?
00:20:22 Maria: Esther and I have this joke between us, Esther Lee. She's my, she's also heavily involved with community-centric fundraising. But we have this joke between us of like, oh, we're just such plants, you know, like, all we needed some sun, like stay hydrated and like, just chill. And it's just so nice to think about, you know, but yet, a little bit of sun and a walk can do so much for you. And like, I know it sounds really basic, but honestly, it's the same thing with like sleep or eating.
00:20:49 Maria: It sounds basic, but the change that it can have in your body and in your mind, but your body to like it, which, it retain so much of that stress. So like the body keeps the score. That's a really good point for like, the trauma stored in the body and how you can kind of like remove some of that stress slowly. And I just love the techniques that you're sharing with us today.
00:21:11 Kishshana: And I just want people to feel like it's not impossible. I didn't say it wasn't challenging. Facing yourself is rough, okay? So let's be honest about that. But a lot of times we are talking about external things that we think are hamstringing us from being able to shift. And even addressing the fatigue, I know that for me, more than diet and more than movement is sleep. I learned it the hard way, but now I know. So the thing I was struggling the most with, I'm like, why is my cut? Why is my stomach? Why is my achy? Why is my, it's sleep. For me, for somebody else, it is your diet, right? It is the things that your body is saying to you at this stage in your life, babe, you don't need that. Whatever that is, because for me last week I realized it's steak and I'm very sad but now it's got to go.
00:22:00 Kishshana: So are you listening to your body? Are you slowing down to listen to what you need? Are you giving yourself the opportunity to pause so that then you're able to give what you decide is your very best to your role, to your organization, to your community? Are you able to participate in the way that you get to decide what piece of you you give, as opposed to you get the dregs of what's left and people get some version of you, but it's not the best you that you'd want to even give them.
00:22:31 Maria: Oh my God. Okay. So it's like giving a hundred percent at work, but then you don't have any other percentage to give anywhere else.
00:22:37 Kishshana: That's it.
00:22:38 Maria: But it's like, Oh, but I want to do a hundred percent at work. I get it. But you can't spend all your energy in one spot, even if it was like a relationship or a friendship. Like it's just not healthy or--
00:22:47 Kishshana: It's not healthy. I would like you to give a hundred percent of your, of your 40 percent. Like I would like you to not take on things that are going to put you in a position where you are not successful. One of the lessons that my partner continues to teach me is about the balance that he has with his work. And he has a very stressful job. It is super intense. It's labor intensive. It's people intensive. So he's using his executive function all day.
00:23:13 Kishshana: And I have been amazed at the number of times that he's been like, I'm done for the day. And I'm like, but you said you have other things to do. He was like, mm-hmm, I'll pick it up tomorrow. What? Can you imagine somebody in our organizations being like, or in another fundraiser being like, I'll just pick it up tomorrow.
00:23:34 Kishshana: We have a four-year-old dog who, when I was doing 'All My Lies,' and people who listen to my podcast should know they have heard this Chanel, she's made a video appearance, she's made barking appearances, she has put her paws up and leaned into the mirror on client calls. She is the official mascot of management. And so she has decided that she would like to join us today. And I've told her no.
00:23:53 Kishshana: But so like, think about the things that kind of bring you back to center and bring you joy. So for me, one of the biggest surprises of the last five years. So think of my partner. I don't have that level of discipline yet, because I grew up in a fundraising environment where you got to go, go, go to grant his dues and emergencies, emergencies, emergencies, emergency. And so I'm working on it. Being able to have that level of balance. I'm not quite there.
00:24:16 Kishshana: But one of the things that did start to bring me back to center and did start to slow me down, believe it or not, was having an animal. I grew up in New York City. I grew up in an apartment building. We weren't allowed to have animals. I didn't grow up with them. So it didn't occur to me that I would want one or need one or that anything would be necessary. And then the pandemic hit and we got [Sarah Gommo] Chanel. She the boujee-est dog you ever want to see. And she taught us what it meant to slow down a little bit, what it meant to just enjoy the simple things.
00:24:44 Kishshana: So Maria, you know, you said that you're a flower, you're a plant, right? So you know you would see dogs and they just sit in the sun? That's this one. She just sits in the sun. So the question I wanna ask folks when they're thinking about overwhelm and they're thinking about the apathy that they're having right now and they're thinking about what the heck do I do next? My question is, what is your sit in the sun moment? What is that for you?
00:25:06 Kishshana: For some folks, it's your favorite book. For some folks, it's your favorite show. For some folks, it's cooking a meal. But my friend, Demali, it is cleaning the house top to bottom. That is her sitting in the sun moment, okay? She's stressed. Everything's gonna be clean top to bottom. So what is that moment for you, notice it's not at work, so that you're able to start to get that vitality, you're able to get that oomph back that I'm seeing so much of an absence of?
00:25:32 Maria: I like the metaphor of sitting in the sun because it's not sitting on the couch watching TV. Like it's way more intentional. Like there's a lot of energy coming to you when you're sitting in the sun. Not the same as when you're watching TV maybe, but it depends on each person, I guess.
00:25:47 Maria: I wanted to ask a little bit about, so we have some strategies of how you've slowed down. Are there other strategies that you've heard from other people that really helped them kind of move away from being at 100% all the time to just giving 100% of their 40%.
00:26:04 Kishshana: Believe it or not, I'm learning from my queen ageer and then the young people of her generation because let me tell you, these young folks, they will rest, they will luxuriate. And so a lot of times when I work with clients who have children or nieces or nephews or they have young people in their life, I go watch them in their behavior and how they relax. Their relaxation is a different level of relaxation. They clearly have no worries. So that's thing one, observe what's happening around you.
00:26:34 Kishshana: Thing two for me is, speaking of young people, what did you do when you were in your high school, middle school age that brought you an immense amount of joy? For me, I can't color worth a darn. I just want you to know, I'm only an artist in my mind. But coloring and coloring books, I used to love them, be obsessed with them. I'm a reader, I used to read. So I started to get back to those things. And I realized when I stopped doing those things, I got busy, I moved, I'm traveling, I'm this and that, life is happening.
00:27:04 Kishshana: All of a sudden I'm scatterbrained again. All of a sudden I'm out of sorts again. So what is that childhood, that adolescent, that early year touchstone that you can get back to? One of my girlfriends is hula hooping and she was a baton major, like a twirler, when she was in high school and she could twirl the heck out of that baton. You hear me?
00:27:23 Kishshana: She started posting videos of herself in her driveway. This is a grown woman, she got grandchildren, just twirling. Excited about life. Because the stress of what she was navigating was so high that she needed to find the simplest thing to just bring her back to the essence of who she is. So I advise my clients to do that.
00:27:42 Maria: Have you heard of the seven types of rest?
00:27:45 Kishshana: Yes, I have.
00:27:46 Maria: I'd love to share them with our audience right now, just so they can start thinking about their own kind of what rest looks like to them and how to take care of themselves at this sector. So we have physical rest, so things like sleeping. Great. Mental rest, taking a break from the computer, emotional rest, sensory rest, creative rest, social rest, and spiritual rest. So, yes, those sound also healing. They have the word rest in those. I'm already happy.
00:28:17 Maria: Yeah, but something that I like to do is creative rest. So I got really into polymer clay during the pandemic and it's something that I like to do after work every now and then. But when you're saying drawing, this is actually something that I like to do with meetings that I have with people that I know very well.
00:28:33 Maria: So for example, with Esther, like I'll also be drawing while we're having this meeting. I'll also be coloring, because it just gives me a different sensory experience and I can still listen and participate very well, but it's just a little bit of my focus is on something that brings me joy as well. So I don't know, I found that very nice.
00:28:52 Kishshana: I love that, because I love the idea of like, what is the thing that you need space? So, I have a girlfriend of mine who always say like, Kishshana, words are powerful, right? Their language is powerful. How you speak to yourself is powerful. I was in a very dark time, my single motherhood. And I took that to heart. And so if I say, oh my God, I need rest, and in your mind, you associate rest with weakness, you associate rest with failure, you associate rest with not working hard enough, would not be in the front, would not be successful, then the word rest is gonna sound like a Freddy Krueger horror movie to you.
00:29:23 Kishshana: I am one of those people. So for me, I talk about space. I need a little space. I need to give myself some space. I need to get some room to breathe. And when I think about it from that perspective, all of a sudden, I'm taking some room to breathe. So I don't do an afternoon nap. I go to an afternoon, I just relax a little bit. I'm gonna go sit down and get off the computer screen. I wear glasses, I'm on the screen all day, I'm talking all day. And I just end in silence, luxuriating on my couch. I know I'm not gonna sleep because I do not believe in 20 minute naps.
00:29:56 Kishshana: And so, but I can luxuriate for about 20, 30 minutes. That's about my limit. Then I gotta get up. I'm too much of a busybody. But for me, I just gave myself space to decide if the task that I need to do later isn't really that important. Or maybe I don't need two hours, maybe 30 minutes. Or maybe I should call up that client and go, hey, actually, why don't we actually jump on the call if you still have the space today and let's kind of map things out. I'm gonna need a day or two to think through what you asked me to do.
00:30:18 Kishshana: Because the word rest scares me to death. Oh, rest failure. But space, room. Look at my face, like I smiled, you know what I said? So what are the words that we need to talk to ourselves about? And Brene Brown has a really great book on Atlas of the Heart that it gives us all about the range of emotions that they did the studies on and whatever, and that was such a breakthrough book for me because the nerdy part of me loves a good definition. And so how are we defining what health is in our organization? How are we defining what health is for fundraisers specifically?
00:30:55 Kishshana: How are we thinking about how we take care of ourselves? Why are you saying yes to a 7:30 a.m. meeting with a donor when you have drop off? Why can you not say, I would love to meet with you at 7:30, I have drop off for my daughter? Is there a time in the day that's better or can we take a call after drop off? I wanna make sure I'm fully present for you and with you.
00:31:15 Maria: A hundred percent.
00:31:17 Kishshana: Now if the president says no, you got to wonder what kind of donor they're gonna be, okay? Sometimes the money that I don't want, I don't care how big the check is. But you know where I'm going Maria? I was at a conference yesterday teaching a class on intergenerational board service. And one of the things that I said to this big group of leaders, all board members, CEOs, etc., big group, was, I know that you all are going to roll your eyes by the time I get halfway through this class that we're doing.
00:31:50 Kishshana: Why? Why, Kishshana? Because most of what I'm going to tell you is going to be about yourself. And I know you came here thinking I was going to give you the playbook for them over there who are causing you grief. But really, you are causing yourself grief. And so here's how we're going to navigate it. And then by the end, folks are like, this is the best presentation ever. Because they were worried. But I love to level set expectations.
00:32:12 Kishshana: So a second trend that I've been seeing is that we are so focused on the external, the news, what's happening globally, what's happening in our backyards, what's happening with our finances, the, we're focused, that we're not able to slow down and go, what do I actually have in my purview, in my control? And how do I make that the best experience? And so I want people to stop worrying about what's out there. It is not a competition for private investment and private philanthropy, it's not.
00:32:46 Kishshana: There's nothing, now, there might be more loopholes, because why folks make things harder when they can make it easier? I don't know. But it allows us the opportunity to be very selective. We get to be selective about what loopholes and what hoops we wanna jump through, as opposed to what has been the attitude prior to my opinion to when community-centric fundraising really started to come into its, like develop the language, we were just chasing whatever ball was rolling down the hill. I don't want anybody to do that.
00:33:20 Maria: I think one of the factors that are like one of the external factors that a lot of people end up focusing on is like, well, if I don't do it, it can't get done. Like, it would be impossible. There's no one to replace me. Like I am. I'm the person that knows the best and there's no kind of pipeline towards a different leader or a succession plan, whether it's your keyboard member, an ED or a fundraiser. So I wonder what you would say to someone who's facing that situation.
00:33:50 Kishshana: I would say, listen, get out of your own way, because that's your ego talking. And whenever you feel like nobody else can, have you made space to somebody to shadow you? Because we all say we don't have time to train, we don't have time to do. Can they shadow though? So you can hand it off. Have you actually written out how things are done? And if you don't have time to write, can you record yourself? So you can create standard operating procedures, SOPs, so somebody else can do it the way you would do it.
00:34:16 Kishshana: Hello? Have you created the space for someone else to be able to support you so that you can focus your strengths on the thing that's gonna actually have maximum benefit as opposed to this piddly thing over here that nobody else can do but you. Those are some of the questions I want people to be self-reflective and to really interrogate, right? Like you are actually potentially putting yourself in position to be darn exhausted. And I would like you to stop. So how do you navigate that? So that's kind of where my sort of thinking is around what do I want people to be thinking about? Or what would I say?
00:34:52 Kishshana: People who work alongside me, who get coached by me or advised by me, they already know. Kishshana is all about love, and accountability is love, and straight talk. I want to make sure that I'm not talking in circles, that I'm not talking around things, that I'm not making it fancy and flowery. What you really are seeking is someone to see you and to see you in a way that allows you to decide if you want to take action or do nothing. That's a decision.
00:35:20 Kishshana: And I want to make sure that you have the opportunity to do so. And so for folks who can't, nobody else, nobody but me. Martyritis, it's a disease, y'all. This desire to be put on, it just, nobody wants to be Joan of Arc, okay? So that's kind of some of the conversation that I like to have, because I want people to come to the strategies and to some of the tactics that they want to use to walk themselves away from that behavior.
00:35:44 Maria: I think building that accountability and also it forces you to take stock of your energy, stock of your mental health, your physical health, and then also it can be really empowering. So I am responsible for the number of meetings that I have today and I'm going to say no. It's the worst that can happen.
00:36:00 Kishshana: Yep.
00:36:01 Maria: If you're the only one that can do this job, what's the worst that can happen? I guess they know.
00:36:05 Kishshana: And we have to be willing to be expendable to understand that we are expendable, not disposable. Okay? But that actually, God forbid something were to happen to you, your team is gonna fet you, which is in Caribbean just to have a party and celebration. And then they're gonna forget you. Somebody else is gonna come in and do that work.
00:36:25 Maria: Oh my God, fet and forget, I love it.
00:36:26 Kishshana: Fet and forget. And so, hello, if you put that in perspective, that means that you ought to recalibrate so that you're enjoying the best of your work and you're enjoying the best of your life and you're enjoying the best of yourself. And that has been a hard, one lesson for me. Even in this past 10 months, I just wrote a Facebook post about it yesterday, that I realized I've been a terrible friend and I'm normally the good friend. I'm the dependable one, the one who shows up early leaves late.
00:37:00 Kishshana: I'm the one who brings the presents. I don't forget birthdays. I send just because cards. Like, this last 10 months has been a hot mess. I have done nothing. I have looked at the phone and not answered the call. I've done all the things, okay? I'm the one that people talk about on Instagram. And I realized, holy moly, it's because I'm, first of all, I'm writing a book where all of the stuff that I'm writing about is actually also happening. And so I'm experiencing it again in real time. So it's a real thing.
00:37:24 Kishshana: But secondly, I'm coming into another phase of my life where I'm really questioning who am I really? And do I like her? And discovering, oh my God, and some parts I really love and some parts no. So much so that the other day somebody asked me would I go back into fundraising again as a chief development officer and I said, maybe. When I'm on record in writing, in blogs, on tweets, all kinds of places to be like, never again. I'll coach it but I'm not doing it. And then I found myself going, maybe.
00:37:56 Maria: It's so funny how our identity changes over the time.
00:37:59 Kishshana: Yes, absolutely. And we have to be okay with that, right? And I think that's one of the things I would tell folks, particularly my fundraising professionals and my operations professionals and small organizations, it's okay to change. Like it's okay to not want to do that. It's okay to let go of that event that y'all been doing for years that hasn't seen an increase in years. Find another way to make that 56,000. You know you hate it.
00:38:24 Maria: I'm trying not to laugh.
00:38:26 Kishshana: What you got to say this thing out loud and then decide to do something about it or not. But acknowledge that it is. So I think that's one of the things. And then I think the last thing that I would say that I'm seeing a lot of is it feels like we are back to business as usual. And I remember in 2020 when there was this big kick-off of consulting firms hanging out their shingles to do DEI work, DEIB work. And there were a lot of articles being written, a lot of commitments being made, a lot of posturing, and a lot of, you know, you saw a lot of me as a headliner of places.
00:39:06 Kishshana: And I'm on record saying, this ain't gonna last. It felt like an episode of Pumped. And I knew it. And sure enough, just the other day, I had to stay out loud again on the good length of the ends. Hey, I don't know if we've noticed, but the way the technology works, if we're able to mine data to understand how our customers, clients, donors, prospects are breathing, then we ought to be able to fill a roster on a conference. Headliners of Focal Color, without having to go, I've looked everywhere, I don't know where anyone is. Come on.
00:39:47 Maria: Oh my God, I have to tell you this story.
00:39:49 Kishshana: Tell me.
00:39:50 Maria: And the audience, I guess. Guys, people were asking me about this. They're like, why did you step away from AFP Ottawa? Because we were meant to speak there. We look at the roster once it's published, and it's me, Esther, and maybe one or two other people of color. And I'm like, come on, 33%? Also not a single Black person here?
00:40:09 Kishshana: And folk are happy with that. They're like, but look, the people of color. The women of color. Are you kidding me right now? But that's because global anti-Blackness is real. Different podcast episode. I don't know what you're talking about. But it just, it just, I just wanted people to just be honest and say, we don't really care if y'all are there or not. We just want to be real clear about that. Because you know, people are going to pay anyway. I would have way more respect for that.
00:40:32 Maria: So we stepped off the panel and then they added like five more women of color, including the chair of the fundraising day, who is a Black woman. Okay, like you were just throwing yourself in the mix for what reason? Just--
00:40:48 Kishshana: For what reason? And why do we not start with the end in mind? Have we not seen enough marketing campaigns? Have we not seen enough marketing snafus? Have we not seen enough blunders? Say goodbye to these women of color. And that was my question. And my question around what I'm seeing is, aren't we exhausted by the faux blunders? At this point, it's not fake. It's not real, it's fake. You play, playing.
00:41:07 Maria: 100%.
00:41:09 Kishshana: And because there aren't really consequences beyond written outrage, we're a bunch of keyboard killers. Oh, I'm gonna say online how upsetting I am, but what are you gonna do about it? What is there to be done? Business is still happening.
00:41:21 Maria: I know.
00:41:22 Kishshana: So back to, then what? That apathy. If business is just happening as usual, and the stuff is just what it is, then why do I even bother? It's vicious cycle that we're in. So I am really charging organizational leaders in particular. I don't care if you got three people in your organization or 20 or 25 or 250, so forth and so on. I am challenging folks to really see the humanness in themself, to acknowledge it, to understand how they are showing up in the world, to really actually practice emotional intelligence.
00:41:57 Kishshana: Hello, it's time for self-management and self-awareness. And to model a healthier behavioral practice in your organization. And for me, because culture at its most basic definition are a set of behaviors over time, if the organization's leader, that executive leader is modeling healthy behaviors and not tolerating divisive, unhealthy, toxic, foolishness stated or experienced to exist, let's have a zero tolerance for that.
00:42:38 Kishshana: Then the behaviors of the people of the organization are gonna shift, because you're either gonna have to doodle or get off the potty. That's it. I wanna really challenge leaders to try to take that on. I really do. Because I think that starting with that self-discipline, that self-management, that practice, and then moving into modeling that, little by little, for your team members, the shift will start to happen within our organizations. I think the cloud of apathy will start to lift because people will say, at work, I feel seen, I feel heard, and most days, I belong. Can't ask for more than that.
00:43:14 Maria: I love it. Let's leave it there. I think that's a perfect ending note. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Where can people find you to continue the conversation?
00:43:23 Kishshana: So you can find me across all socials at Kishshana Palmer, my first name, last name. We have, listen, there are very few Kishshanas in the world, I think. If you are interested in learning more about how we bring this fresh take of management and leadership to your organization, big or small, that I encourage you to go to www.managemint, M-I-N-T dot co and check out our freebie sticky teams, which talks about how you can actually get your teams to stick even in this economy and even in this fundraising environment, in this organizational environment and then talk to me in the socials. Y'all I respond. And invite me in for your event, for your conference, to be your host, just to help to change things in the way that you all think and act in your organization.
00:44:13 Maria: So we'll have that all linked in the show notes down below. Thank you so much, Kishshana, again, for being here with us. And thank you everyone for tuning to this new episode of the Small Nonprofit Podcast. I'm sure we all need to take a collective deep breath after hearing so much about rest, and I hope that you get to go outside. have a nice walk, find your sun, you're sitting in the sun moments and just, you know, take stock of what's really important to you. And as I said, bring humanity into who you are as a person every single day. So that'll be it for today. Bye for now. And we'll see you next time.
00:44:48 Kishshana: See you next time.
00:44:53 Maria: Thank you for listening to another episode of The Small Nonprofit. If you want to continue the conversation, feel free to connect with our guests directly or find me on LinkedIn. Let's keep moving money to mission and prioritizing our well-being. Bye for now.
