Let’s get UNIONIZED with Christina Rousseau
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Nonprofit workplaces often come with an expectation of self-sacrifice. Staff are expected to work long hours, accept below-market pay, and tolerate unfair conditions – all in service of the mission. But what if there was a way to uphold that passion for the cause while also ensuring fair treatment of workers?
That's where unions come in. This episode explores the world of unionization with Christina Rousseau. Having led a successful unionization effort in her former nonprofit role and now working as a union representative, Christina offers a unique 360-degree view of the possibilities and challenges unions bring to the nonprofit sector. You are going to love how Christina and I met.
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Key Episode Highlights:
Unions prioritize workers' voices. They provide a platform to address workplace concerns, advocate for fair policies, and create a sense of agency for staff.
Collective agreements offer stability and transparency. They outline clear expectations, benefits, and procedures, minimizing ambiguity and potential conflicts.
The process can be challenging, but it's not insurmountable. Seeking guidance from an appropriate union streamlines the process and helps you navigate complexities.
Open communication is key for management. Transparency with staff about the process builds trust and smooths the transition to a unionized environment.
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Watch this episode on Youtube: https://youtu.be/krjZ871CUoo
Links and Resources:
Connect with Christina Rousseau on Linkedin: linkedin.com/in/christina-rousseau
Check out the Website: https://psacunion.ca/
Connect with Maria on LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mariario/
Support the show: https://www.buzzsprout.com/208666/supporters/new
Transcript:
00:00:00 Christina: We think about the different experiences and privileges that we come into the workplace with, where some people come into the workplace where they're like, oh, I feel really confident actually, like when I'm being offered a job to like ask for more vacation time or to ask for more money or ask for whatever. And not everyone has that ability. So being part of this collective process does take away that ability to have this individualized experience.
00:00:00 Maria: Hi friends, ever wondered how you could turn your big ideas into results? I'm Maria Rio, your go-to guide for helping small nonprofits have real world impacts. Together, let's reimagine a better sector, tackle systemic issues, and yes, raise some serious cash. Welcome back to The Small Nonprofit, the podcast where your passion meets action.
00:00:53 Maria: Hi friends, welcome back to The Small Nonprofit Podcast. Today's guest, I'm actually really excited to introduce you to, because how we met was very weird. And I've just been so excited to see her career grow in the way that it has, because I think that she can make such a huge impact in the organizations that she's able to support. So I'm just gonna pass it off to Christina to introduce herself. Hi Christina.
00:01:19 Christina: Hi Maria, nice to see you.
00:01:21 Maria: Nice to see you too. Christina, what do you do and what do you want to tell our audience about yourself?
00:01:28 Christina: I currently work for the Public Service Alliance of Canada, which is one of Canada's largest public sector unions representing workers all across Canada in a number of different sectors. And how we met is from our previous work together at a nonprofit organization, which I later went on to organize.
00:01:47 Maria: I want to share the details of that if that's okay.
00:01:49 Christina: Yeah.
00:01:50 Maria: Okay, so Christina and I both worked at the same organization. I entered the organization as a director of development and communications, so a leadership management position, while they were in the process of forming their first collective agreement. So there was a lot of challenges that came with that as a leader, but I'm sure there was a lot of challenges that came with it for the staff as well. So I thought Christina would be a really good person to introduce to the audience to talk about her experience as someone who started that organizing effort.
00:02:18 Maria: But also what's really funny about Christina is that she then ended up getting hired by the union. So she was on the other side of the table at the same organization. So I thought that perspective is so unique and you don't usually get to hear about it. So I would love to hear a little bit, Christina, about why you see workplaces organized or nonprofits in general.
00:02:40 Christina: Yeah, I think one of the things I'm seeing across the union that I work for, there are a number of different types of nonprofit organizations that have organized over the years. I think one of the main things is, why anyone would want to organize, right, is to protect their rights, to make sure that their voice is heard, and to ensure a certain level of equity and transparency across the organization, and to bring workers onto a more level playing field with the employer. Because the truth is that in an employer-employee situation, there's always going to be an imbalance of power. So unions come in and are a way to balance that.
00:03:17 Christina: And also one of the things is that a lot of nonprofits, especially those who are more social justice minded, there are really good policies and practices in place, but the problem is that they're not always followed and there's also not always any guarantee that those policies will remain in place. So it could be at the whim of whoever comes in in management at any given time, could always change those policies. So it's a way to safeguard to make sure that the protections and rights that workers do enjoy are enshrined in some enforceable way and also improved upon, of course.
00:03:48 Maria: Isn't HR there for that?
00:03:52 Christina: Yeah, HR is there to protect the interests of the employer at the end of the day.
00:03:58 Maria: Guys, I see a lot of people who they're like, I have a problem with my boss, I'm going to talk to HR. And for some reason, that doesn't end up landing as well as something like a union grievance. I wonder if you could touch on that a little bit.
00:04:13 Christina: Yeah. So a union grievance, because once there is a collective agreement, and maybe talk about this later if there's time, but there's a lot between, like unionizing and then getting your first collective agreement. But once you do have that collective agreement in place, it is a legally binding contract. It's mutually agreed upon between both the employer and the employees. So that means that both parties agreed to the terms and conditions of what's set out in that document, and it is a legally enforceable document. So whereas with HR, there's no guarantee that what you bring to HR is going to be resolved in any way or in a way that is desirable for you.
00:04:45 Maria: Oh, that's such a easy distinction. And it makes a huge difference. That is really interesting. Because even external forces like in Ontario, we have the Ontario Human Rights Commission, they may still not be able to legally enforce something if it's like bullying or even like sexual harassment from a donor or some other power dynamic happening at the organization.
00:05:10 Christina: Yeah, exactly. And the collective agreement at least tries to bring in more measures to help to protect that. And of course, no collective agreement is perfect, but it's actually through the grievance process and through subsequent rounds of collective bargaining that you're able to improve and strengthen that language to make sure that there are even greater protections in place for workers.
00:05:27 Maria: So at the organization that we worked at together, was that your first experience organizing?
00:05:32 Christina: No, it was not. My first experience trying to organize, it was so long ago, I think it was like 19 or 20. And it was a job that I'd worked at for a number of years. It was at a movie theater, a big chain. I won't name names, but it's a chain of movie theaters and yeah, tried to organize that workplace and we got to the point and we got all the card signs that we needed to. And then when it came down to the vote, there was a lot of intimidation on the part of the employer. And at that time, I didn't really know a lot about, like, what were my rights as someone who was, like trying to organize my workplace.
00:06:03 Christina: So I think I learned a lot of lessons from that, that looking back now, I'm like, okay, like this is what I could have done differently in those circumstances. So ultimately it was not successful. We didn't get the union in that workplace. And I was not terminated because that's illegal, but at that workplace, we were hired on a contract basis and my contract was not renewed.
00:06:20 Maria: Wow. Shocker.
00:06:21 Christina: Yeah.
00:06:21 Maria: So surprised. Yeah. I actually had never worked at a unionized organization as a manager up until that point. But as a staff person, I remember when I worked at, public outreach, that face to face fundraising agency, where some people were looking to unionize and how management at the time was talking about it. It's like, well, like we are providing fundraising services to charities. So you think people who are not fundraising well should still have a job?
00:06:51 Christina: Yeah. And employers will use all kinds of different tactics to try to de-incentivize workers from unionizing. I remember actually at this movie theater chain. We got to see unlimited free movies on our days off. And it was like, well, you know, we have the free movies now, but once you're unionized, I'm not sure if we'll be able to offer the same thing. And so, I mean, that's a bit more of a silly example, but I think employers do try to use different, you know, there's no reason why anything would have to change. So that's like a choice that the employer would make in that case.
00:07:19 Maria: That is true. It's not like there's some external union-based reason why you would have to no longer have free movies or–
00:07:27 Christina: Exactly.
00:07:27 Maria: Have the perks that you had to before.
00:07:29 Christina: Yeah.
00:07:30 Maria: Yes. There's definitely a lot of pros and a lot of, I would say more pros than cons to unionizing, but there were some that I experienced as a manager that made it a little bit difficult to live true to my values. So one of them was as part of our collective agreement, every single staff person was entitled to the same professional development amount, which is great. Every person has a budget that they know they have access to.
00:07:57 Maria: But as part of the values of community-centric fundraising, which is this fundraising model that focuses on uplifting the community and mostly people who are racialized have lived experience X, Y, and Z. Their values is, to give more additional budget for professional development for racialized individuals. So that to me was a challenge that I struggled with in the process of the collective agreement plus this equity piece. So I wonder if you could touch on that, if there's other scenarios where you see the conflict happening and how those are solved.
00:08:30 Christina: That's actually a really good example of a place where workers could discuss what are some improvements that we would want to make. And I think that like, you know, any union that also supports racial justice and equity would be on board with making amendments to a collective agreement to make sure that there is that more diverse support that we're not doing like one size fits all approach. So I think there's ways to work through that. And of course, every agreement is an improvement upon the last. I think there's a lot of examples in existing collective agreements to draw on that type of language. So you're not starting from a blank slate. There's places to start to build up on some of those issues for sure.
00:09:02 Maria: How informed do you feel the managers and the staff are when they actually get to the bargaining process?
00:09:08 Christina: It's wildly different. It depends if anyone has ever worked in a unionized environment or not. I think it's tricky in the nonprofit world when it comes to the negotiation process, because I think, depending on the organizational structure. Ultimately, it's usually a board that has the final say on what happens with funding or how funds are allocated or whatever, but they're not actually the ones at the bargaining table. So that makes it a bit tricky. But yeah, I think it really depends on who has been part of a unionized environment or not before. So I think that there's a lot to learn for sure for anyone who's new on either, management side or on the worker side.
00:09:46 Maria: Let's say, I'm starting a union at my organization. I'm a staff person. I want better things for me and my teammates. If I have no information about how to do that, what are the first steps that someone could take?
00:09:59 Christina: Good question. Look around, what are some unions that exist? So I was someone going into it that had some knowledge of unions and what unions exist and what type of unions might be appropriate. But I think even just, like asking around, like looking around, like are there other organizations similar to yours that are unionized? Maybe you can, like, ask them like who, what that process was like. And what we did when we started the process is, so there was a small core, I think there was, three of us on the core initial organizing team. And we actually ended up meeting with people from a number of different unions to see who, do we think would be a good fit for what our values are as workers and some of the issues that we wanted addressed in the workplace.
00:10:36 Christina: So we met with a couple of different unions and from there decided like, okay, this is the person that we wanna go with. And then from there, they had members of an organizing team who provided us support all along the way. So kind of helped, like I said, like with us, like we already had some experience, but for workers who have zero experience coming into organizing, there is someone there to support you through the whole process to kind of help share models of like, how do you organize? How do you have conversations with your coworkers?
00:11:02 Christina: Maybe there's a conversation you're not comfortable having because you feel like you don't have the knowledge. So there's like that organizer person who is their full time job to do this, who's there to help you have that conversation with your coworkers. So yeah, so there's definitely support along the way for people who don't have that background or experience.
00:11:18 Maria: Something that I felt was kind of like some anti-union sentiment. And I get it, collective agreement is perfect, as you said, but it was kind of like, oh, they're filing agreements. You know how much it's gonna cost us, like $10,000. And I'm like, it's so hard to fundraise $10,000. That's expensive.
00:11:35 Christina: Yeah.
00:11:36 Maria: I'm sure that there was, also times where it's like, hey, you can't go on strike because that's gonna affect the service user. So really kind of like twisting the knife on some things that really matter to you. I wonder how unions advise people through that.
00:11:53 Christina: Yeah. And I think, definitely no one wants to spend $10,000. And that's not even like the settlement. That's just to pay lawyers. So with the grievance process, there's steps before it gets to that step. So most grievances could or should be handled. So the collective agreement will have different steps or stages for agreement. So ideally it would be handled internally. And actually, ideally, the issue would be handled before it even gets to be, agreement. So we always try to follow an informal process to work things out. And the grievance is basically like a disagreement about, like how should this language be interpreted often.
00:12:27 Christina: So some of those issues can also be addressed and worked through at labor management committee meetings, which is where representatives from the union side and representatives from the management side come together every few months to talk about, these are some issues that we're having in the workplace to try to resolve those issues before they result in a grievance. So there's different ways to mitigate some of that, going to arbitration and having to spend thousands of dollars along the way. And then it's not meant to be an antagonistic relationship. And I think if both parties are coming to the table where it's like our common goal is the good of the organization, so even something like a strike action.
00:13:03 Christina: So if it were to come to a position where a union at a nonprofit were in a strike position, there’s a number of different actions that can be taken. So people, when people think about a strike, they think about everyone withdrawing their labor power and out on a picket line, right? I mean, there's actually a number of different types of actions that could be considered strike actions that wouldn't necessarily harm or impact the service users at the organization or depending on what the work is with the nonprofit. So there are other options available other than just everyone out, all work stops. There's things like rotating strike, targeted strikes in terms of certain departments withdrawing their labor.
00:13:39 Christina: Or we're going to strike on certain days or engage in something called work to rule where it's like just going to work directly to the letter of like, what my contract is and like, do no additional extra work which in non-profit organizations so many people do. So yeah. So there's different options where it's like we want to get, have our rights protected but we also don't want to impact service users in a negative way.
00:14:02 Maria: So I have always been a fundraiser. I've never worked on the program side at all. I don't know if you have some information on this, but for fundraisers, usually they leave their job after 12 to 18 months, because I'm sure you know all these problems with nonprofit, unrealistic expectations, your [resume], your board, it's just a lot. So let's say I'm part of a fundraising team, why would I choose to stay rather than leave when it comes to the unionizing effort?
00:14:32 Christina: I think that there could be things that are improved through the unionization process, and it's important to have that voice there at the table as well to be like, what do people from fundraising need? What would they need to stay in these positions longer, right? Is there something that like this process could help bring forward to give you more of an incentive to want to stick around with the organization longer? So I think that there's, it's important to have those voices at the table as well.
00:14:57 Maria: Is there a way to kind of unionize a sector within a sector? So if all program staff across all organizations unionize in their one union, does that work? Does that not work? Some of them are already unionized. What does that look like?
00:15:11 Christina: Yeah, it depends. Is the short answer. The longer answer is that when you go to apply for a bargaining certificate, so once you have all the requisite number of cards signed, then there'll be someone who looks at, like okay, what is the type of work being performed by people? It doesn't make sense for them to all be in the same union. Sometimes, so I belong to a union. I was like a union staff person, and we have three different units within our union. And that the three different units are based on, like the type of work that people do.
00:15:38 Christina: So it could be people are in totally separate unions. It could be that people are in the same union, but like different units who have, like different collective agreements that are bargained separately. So it really depends on like, when the labor board's looking at like, okay, these are the types of workers. Does it make sense to group them all together? Would it make more sense to have them separated? So yeah, there is definitely that possibility.
00:16:00 Maria: What are some other like pros and cons that you see or challenges that you see when it comes to the unionizing process?
00:16:07 Christina: I think that especially in nonprofits where people really care about the work that they do, no one goes into nonprofit work looking to make a lot of money. I think that the issue of wages often becomes an issue where it's like, yes, people want, like, better wages, but also like no one wants to take away from, like programming or like, hurt community members, things like that. I think people can see unionization as like an antagonistic process when it's really, it's not inherently antagonistic. So some people might be afraid of being penalized or losing their job, which is illegal. So people should not be worried about that.
00:16:42 Christina: And I think also, yeah like the not knowing enough can be an obstacle. And I think one thing that can be tricky or could be potentially a barrier is, like we think about the different experiences and privileges that we come into the workplace with, where some people come into the workplace where they're like, oh, I feel really confident actually, like when I'm being offered a job to like ask for more vacation time or to ask for more money or ask for whatever, right? And not everyone has that ability. So being part of this collective process does take away that ability to basically like, have like this individualized experience. But I think if you're able to put that aside for kind of the greater good, where the idea is that everyone's gonna be brought up to a better level, then I think that could help to get over that potential barrier.
00:17:26 Maria: Oh yeah, that is true. I do remember thinking like, okay, how do I get this person a raise? Like they need a raise, but you can't do it without giving everyone on the team a raise, which is very communal, very different from how nonprofits usually run. Because they're so individualistic, it's my reputation, my everything. So I think that's very different. If you're open to it, I love if you could share a little bit about what your experience was as someone who started the unionization process at an organization and then went to the union to be on the side of the table.
00:18:02 Christina: Yeah, that was a really interesting process. So I think I mentioned earlier that often a long time between like, okay, we unionized and then like we have our first collective agreement. So after we unionized, I was around for a year and a bit after we certified as a union. And I was on the bargaining team. So as a member, I was on the bargaining team. I was the local president for a while. And then after about, like a year and a half or so, then, like I was offered this position to come work for the larger union. And I was really lucky actually, and this is definitely not a typical thing that happens, that because bargaining was still ongoing, I got to actually come and sit in as a staff person.
00:18:41 Christina: And so to be a resource and a support for newer members on the bargaining team, someone who had been around the organization for a number of years, so had some institutional knowledge. It was really interesting. Like in some ways, it was like, not at all different. But for me, it was a shift to be like, oh, it's no longer my rights that I'm fighting for. It's like, okay, how do I support other people's rights now and not try to impose what I think they should get onto them and really support their voices at the table?
00:19:10 Maria: I love that. I just find that so interesting, especially the fact where it's like now you get to remove yourself because it was like a personal impact and also like an impact on colleagues and friends. But now it's a very different perspective and it's more, is it more strategic? It feels like it would be, but let me know.
00:19:27 Christina: It could be. I think there's definitely an element like in my particular position where it's like, okay, I do have some of the history of like, what has the organization done before in different circumstances. So if they were to come to the bargaining table to say like, oh, no, we can't do this and be like, well, actually, you have done this, like things like that. So it could be like, more strategic in that sense, like having that institutional knowledge at the table and to help support, like based on my knowledge of the work in the workplace, but also my knowledge of like, okay, like what rights can be brought together? I think like that.
00:19:56 Maria: So you mentioned earlier that it can seem like an adversarial process. How can managers not mess it up? Like make it easy, make it pain free? And if they're saying I support unionizing, like how can they actually show that?
00:20:10 Christina: I think having open conversations with the elected officials of the union. And I think for both sides to kind of approach the process of resolving disputes and issues to both approach it like, okay, we are assuming the best of intentions and how can we move forward with that? So I think to also not take unionization or even things like grievances, like not really take it personally, because often it's not personal, often like when things are happening, it's not always because someone is intentionally trying to do something like screw people over. Sometimes people just don't know. And especially when you have a new collective agreement and you haven't worked in that kind of environment before, like, oh, shoot, I didn't know that I couldn't do this. Right. So I think to like, not take it personally is a big step as well. That it's not always about individual managers. It's really about the inherent power and balances that exist.
00:21:02 Maria: So I guess that's one way that employers mess up. They take it personally.
00:21:07 Christina: Yes.
00:21:08 Maria: What other ways come to mind?
00:21:09 Christina: So I think one of the things that I saw with this organization is, and again, I think it's just because people don't have the experience of working as managers in a unionized environment, really like erring on the side of caution of like, Oh, we can't do this because the union won't let us. And it's like, well, why would the union want to stop you from doing this? So things like letting someone take a leave for professional development, right? We want people to advance and succeed, right? Like why would the union ever want to stop that? So I think actually just having open dialogue and, to not just assume, what will the union allow or not allow and to just have those conversations.
00:21:42 Maria: It's funny because we obviously have a very different viewpoint of this. But from my perspective, what it looked like, it looked like the manager who was at the table was kind of gatekeeping information. They were making kind of like unilateral decisions for some of these things that had either been decided differently months before or were just not what anyone else would agree with or go with.
00:22:06 Christina: Yeah.
00:22:07 Maria: So I don't know. I wonder if there was in that case, like a capitalization on there not being an executive director, or if that's something that happens more commonly, like where there's some gatekeeping information either on the staff team or the management team, where people don't get the full picture.
00:22:26 Christina: Like specifically what's happening at the bargaining table.
00:22:28 Maria: That's right.
00:22:29 Christina: That is tricky, because there are also parameters that people have to follow in bargaining. So there's a thing called, like bad faith bargaining where I won't go into that, but people can look it up or you can message me and I'll tell you more information about it. But basically there's like rules that both sides have to abide by for bargaining. ‘Cause even, like, if there's something that was, like promised at the table or like we made this offer and it was accepted, nothing is final until the whole thing is done. So articles can potentially, like things can change. So yes, it's important to share information as much as possible. And also sometimes there's just certain things that, like, can't be shared.
00:23:07 Christina: And with, on the staff side of things, there's like, the, also I should say the negotiation process like with the PSAC does it anyways, is that there's like a negotiator assigned. So staff members on the bargaining team are not the ones actually negotiating. There's someone who has that experience who's there speaking on their behalf. So they would be that person to direct what is appropriate and not appropriate to share. And it's for a variety of reasons that things wouldn't be appropriate to share. But definitely I think sharing as much as you're able to share and not withholding information just for the sake of withholding information, I think is really important.
00:23:40 Maria: So basically for everybody who's in it, maybe not, like they're living their life and kind of involved with it, you still have an opportunity to change something about the agreement before it's ratified. So after all this long, year long process, you still have a say even at the very end before it's ratified.
00:23:58 Christina: Yeah, potentially, depending. Whereas if it's like, okay, we had agreed to this thing previously, but we really, really want this thing. So we're willing to let go of this thing that we previously agreed to, to get this thing that we really want. And that's different than being like, okay, well, we agree to this. And since you agreed to this, we're actually now going to ask for more. So that is something that would be bad faith bargaining where it's like, we're just going to keep asking for more even though we already agreed to this thing versus like, okay, we're going to swap this for this instead.
00:24:26 Maria: Okay, okay. Got it.
00:24:28 Christina: Yeah.
00:24:28 Maria: Okay. So earlier you mentioned management, maybe not doing things as appropriately as possible. And I'd love to talk a little bit about union busting. Do you see that happen a lot? Are managers kind of open to unionizing? Do they say they're open, but they're not actually open? And are there any tactics that they use that employees can look out for?
00:24:50 Christina: Yes. So especially during, like the unionization process. So before you have certified as a union, I think, yeah, it's like, it's so varied across the board. Some managers are like, yeah, this is great. Like we don't care, like, bring in a union or like whatever. But things like I mentioned before, like, oh, if you unionize, we won't be able to do this or like, oh, but if you unionize, it'll hurt program users or community members. Yeah, so there's definitely different tactics across different types of sectors like that management does use. So managers will often try to say like, oh, if the union comes in, then this will happen or like this will get taken away or like, then you won't be allowed to do this, right? So anytime that a manager is saying that there'll be a consequence to a union coming in, like is definitely a form of union busting and is not allowed.
00:25:38 Maria: Yeah. Those all have, like a punitive sentiment to them.
00:25:42 Christina: Yeah. And then there's also the more, like we're a family type of union busting. And this is actually something that happens a lot. And I think it had happened at this organization way prior to the time that I started there that there had been a previous unionization attempt at the organization. And at that point, management found out about it and was like, Oh, no, no, don't do it. We'll make this, I don't know, like, committee instead to, like resolve all the issues, which then never got resolved.
00:26:11 Maria: Oh, I would love, if you went into, a little bit deeper on that. We're a family angles. like, why do people use it? And is it effective?
00:26:19 Christina: Yeah, it's so effective. And especially in a nonprofit organization where people are there because they care so much about the work that they do. People are there united by a common, like we have a common goal. We have this common shared passion. So it is easy to see the workplace and we spend more time at our workplaces than we do with our families. So yeah, it is easy to spin that narrative of we're like a family, let's have a pizza party and that'll solve all the issues. Workers rights, who needs that? Here, have some cannoli or some pizza. So yeah. So I think that it's not a familial relationship, power imbalance, and if it is a familial relationship, it's definitely one where there's a very strong patriarchal figure who's running the show. It's not an equal relationship.
00:26:57 Christina: So I think keeping that in mind is really important. And actually, talking about this reminds me of when we were doing our unionizing drive and talking to different co-workers in the workplace, there was one coworker who said something like, because of the work we do, it's so easy to exploit us because we care so much about the work that we do. And again, it's not even necessarily about, like an intentional kind of exploitation. It's like, we're often willing to exploit ourselves because we care so much about the work that we do. So how do you shift that, right? To be like, yes, we care about the work and also my rights are important too.
00:27:29 Maria: Yeah, I feel like we are a family [or a rich], like that is only brought in when it's used as an excuse to treat you poorly. It's like our family, we can resolve this together. When in reality, healthy families have boundaries.
00:27:45 Christina: Yeah.
00:27:45 Maria: Right. So why would we not apply the same boundary setting to our labor?
00:27:52 Christina: Yeah, exactly. That's so true.
00:27:54 Maria: Christina, it's been so good having you here. Are there any final thoughts that you want to leave our audience with?
00:27:59 Christina: I think if you are thinking about unionizing, it's definitely worth exploring. I will be honest and open and say that the period between unionizing and getting that first collective agreement can be a long process. And really, it's through the length of that process that people, you know, and it's sometimes intentional on the employer's part to drag it out because then people kind of, like lose their motivation and forget like, why did we do this again? Like, why did we do this in the first place? Like nothing's changing yet.
00:28:26 Christina: So I think if you are going to go through the process to be aware that that is a possibility and to like really be prepared for that, but also know that there's support for you along the way to kind of keep people motivated, keep people informed, keep people engaged in the process. I think that's a really, really important. Yeah, and I think at the end of the day, people are worried about the fundraising aspect of like, oh, that means that we have to fundraise all this money for like increased wages.
00:28:48 Christina: And it's like, sure, like having more equalized wages and like steps and things like that to expect for pay increases is really great and important. But also there's so much more to be gained by workers than just wages in terms of working conditions.
00:29:01 Maria: I love that. Thank you so much for joining us today on The Small Nonprofit, Christina.
00:29:06 Christina: Thank you, Maria. This has been great.
00:29:08 Maria: And for everyone listening, thank you so much for joining us and for hearing a little bit more about how unions work within our sector. I think it's not an often explored topic, so I'm excited to share Christina's information with you. As always, if you'd like to see our lovely faces, you can join us on YouTube. But bye for now.
00:29:31 Maria: Thank you for listening to another episode of The Small Nonprofit. If you want to continue the conversation, feel free to connect with our guests directly or find me on LinkedIn. Let's keep moving money to mission and prioritizing our well-being. Bye for now.
