Retaining your Fundraisers with Laura Vitelli
Subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify
Does your org face the frustration of constantly losing your best fundraisers? Higher salaries, the pressure of unrealistic expectations, feeling undervalued, and being micromanaged are driving talented fundraisers out of the sector. In this episode of The Small Nonprofit, fundraising expert Laura Vitelli shares practical insights on how small nonprofits can break this cycle. We discuss the current challenges nonprofits face with attracting and retaining top fundraising talent, and how a focus on values alignment, flexibility, and collaborative leadership can make all the difference.
Laura Vitelli is a seasoned fundraiser with over 30 years of experience and co-founder of Staiger, VITELLI & Associates. Laura and her business partner Sarah Staiger specialize in helping nonprofits create sustainable fundraising systems through value-based strategies. Together, they provide coaching, training, and strategic planning support to small and mid-sized organizations.
Don’t forget to become a supporter of our show!
Key Episode Highlights:
Values matter more than ever. Fundraisers are seeking organizations that align with their values and provide opportunities for meaningful conversations around complex issues.
Flexibility is key. Options like remote or hybrid work and even the potential for a four-day workweek are becoming major incentives for fundraising talent.
Lead with humility and transparency. Leaders who openly admit what they don't know and actively unlearn outdated practices create a supportive environment for growth.
Trust your fundraisers. Let them lead on strategy and goal setting. Unrealistic goals and lack of autonomy can lead to burnout and turnover.
Invest in your people. Offering competitive salaries, benefits, and ongoing professional development demonstrates that you value your fundraising team's well-being and contributions.
Don’t forget to become a supporter of our show!
Watch this episode on Youtube: https://youtu.be/rv7hdVLFDy4
Links and Resources:
Connect with Laura Vitelli on Linkedin: linkedin.com/in/laura-vitelli
Check out the Website: https://www.staigervitelli.com/
Director of Development Questions Free Download: https://www.staigervitelli.com/dod
Connect with Maria on LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mariario/
Support the show: https://www.buzzsprout.com/208666/supporters/new
Transcript:
00:00:00 Laura: I think that the more organizational leaders can do to involve their fundraisers and other staff to be transparent, to be open, to be inviting, to engage with the difficult issues that the organization is facing, I think that that will go a long way to keeping people in place and keeping them invested in the organization.
00:00:00 Maria: Hi friends, ever wondered how you could turn your big ideas into results? I'm Maria Rio, your go-to guide for helping small nonprofits have real-world impacts. Together let's reimagine a better sector, tackle systemic issues, and yes, raise some serious cash! Welcome back to The Small Nonprofit, the podcast where your passion meets action.
00:00:52 Maria: Hi, everyone. Welcome back to The Small Nonprofit podcast. Today I am with a guest that I've known for a year and a half, almost two years, very excited to be introducing you to Laura, who's here all the way from Minnesota. Hi, Laura.
00:01:08 Laura: Hi, Maria. It's great to be here.
00:01:10 Maria: Laura, I think it's tradition that we do a check in because we always like to do that before. So if you were stranded on an island, what item would you like to have with you?
00:01:23 Laura: Stranded on an island, all alone, presumably, right?
00:01:28 Maria: All alone, just you and this item.
00:01:31 Laura: Oh, can it be my dog? Can I bring my dog, Ivy?
00:01:36 Maria: Yeah, definitely.
00:01:38 Laura: You think that you are gonna be alone on an island? That would be a very good companion.
00:01:44 Maria: Yeah, okay, great, that's a good one.
00:01:48 Laura: You, too.
00:01:49 Maria: How about me?
00:01:50 Laura: Yeah.
00:01:51 Maria: Okay. Hmm. I would bring, I feel like I would want a lighter.
00:01:58 Laura: A lighter?
00:01:59 Maria: Yeah. Oh, you know, like survival instinct. But I feel like every time that I've gone camping, I haven't been able to figure out the flint. So a lighter would make it easier for me plus then I get to eat warm food.
00:02:13 Laura: Yeah.
00:02:14 Maria: Yeah. But a dog is really good. I guess I would have to make friends with fish. Yeah, but just for some context to people listening, so Laura and I worked together for a year and we would always do these check-ins. They were always super fun. And now she's been working on a lot of really cool stuff with her business partner, Sarah. Laura, what are you doing right now? And if you could give us a little bit of background on how you got here, that would be great.
00:02:44 Laura: Sure. I am a partner and co-founder of Staiger, VITELLI and Associates. My partner, Sarah Staiger and I are fundraising communications, community organizing, and program strategists. And we're working with clients from across North America, largely in the Midwest region, on fundraising, providing some coaching for fundraising, doing some strategic planning, and doing some training in value space fundraising, which is what Sarah and I specialize in. And so I've been a fundraiser for more than 30 years.
00:03:24 Laura: And since I was 21 years old, and I found myself in charge of a summer day camp for kids in Minneapolis. And that job grew into a year round gig for writing after school and summer programming. And I did everything there. Fundraising communications, balancing the checkbook, working with the board, finding volunteers, sweeping the floors, making the Kool-Aid. I'm sure that many of your listeners are familiar with that job. And it was a really rich experience too and a place to start my career.
00:04:00 Laura: And when it was time to move on from that, one of the things I was looking for was a little more specialization and moved into fundraising and communications from there to seem to really make good use of my skills. And I've been doing that ever since.
00:04:18 Maria: Nice. So did you get into it on purpose or by accident?
00:04:23 Laura: Yeah, pretty much by accident. I'd gone to college to be a teacher. I was going to teach high schoolers social studies, poli sci, economics, history kind of stuff. And there weren't that many teaching positions available at the time when I graduated. And so I took this job with leaving the summer program that I was familiar with and I knew about. And things took off from there. And I had to learn how to do all of it on the job, including the fundraising and how to be a grant writer, how to speak to church groups about money, how to write an appeal letter, and I very much stumbled into it by accident, as many people do.
00:05:08 Maria: We had your business partner, Sarah, on the podcast, I think a few months ago, talking about value space, major giving, and you know how much I love your work and all the ways that you live your values. Today, you and I are chatting about something a little bit different though. It's how to attract, retain, and make happy your DOD, your director of development, your top fundraiser, which I know a lot of people really struggle with. And maybe we can touch a little bit on why that is. ‘Cause I don't know, what are some, kind of, trends that you're seeing of why people are unable to keep their top fundraiser or if that's just like an old misconception?
00:05:53 Laura: Well, I think there's some labor market pressures and where we are in the Midwest and I think across the United States, we are seeing a lot of people retire, baby boomers. And so far as they're retiring, their position's becoming available and there's not enough people to take those roles. And I think that is in part a result of people becoming burnt out with fundraising and leaving the profession. We see that happening over and over again. And I think even for development directors who are in place, the expectations of a director of development from the people, from the frontline fundraisers they were working with in team situations, and the environment and nonprofits, it's all changing so fast.
00:06:34 Laura: And so I think it's creating these challenges for finding people who are ready to step into those jobs and lead in organizations around fundraising. And that's what we're seeing most is people that groups that are either hiring their first director of development, or are replacing a long-time director of development, and they're really taking a long time to find the right person.
00:06:58 Maria: I wonder how much of it is based on, there's not enough good fundraisers. And also there's no formalized training to become a good fundraiser either. But besides that, it feels like there's a huge scarcity of people who have our skill set. And I'm saying that because anecdotally, one of my clients has a position open and the range is like 120 to 140. And they're kind of struggling to find suitable qualified candidates. So I don't know, before I would think that just a salary would be a huge draw because of all the wages nonprofit, but it seems like it's not really enough.
00:07:42 Maria: And I wonder if it's because there's not enough people in the sector or the DODs that are in an organization right now who may or may not be open to a new role. Maybe they're too scared to take that leap to a different organization based on the possible culture you could be jumping into. Does that ring true to you?
00:08:03 Laura: Yeah, I think so. I think that people are looking for the people we know that are considering positions like that, and they're looking for values alignment. It's more important than ever. And so they are looking for organizations where they can live their own values and that align with their values, where people are valued and treated well and more human-centered approaches. They're looking for, I think, perhaps a little less hierarchy and ability to make decisions. They’re looking for places, they can try new things. The folks we're working for are really invested in the community-centric fundraising movement or are at least curious about it and are exploring.
00:08:48 Laura: And so they want to have opportunities to experiment and try things. And not all organizations are keeping up and are ready to really lean into that and to commit to it, so to speak. And so it gives fundraising leaders coming up that we know, it gives them pause. They're being really thoughtful. And I think that some of those same pressures and forces are an expectations for frontline fundraisers, for non management fundraisers are some of the same forces that are pushing people out in the sector. They're giving it up. They're burning out. It's just too hard to create change in the organization sometimes.
00:09:27 Maria: Oh my God. And thinking of that, I've seen so many organizations that are still really pushing like being on site and you are working these hours, you are working in this location, you're doing things exactly how I say even though I have no experience in fundraising. And I think that might be another barrier to people taking on a new opportunity because when there's such a scarcity of talent, you get to choose where you're actually going to go. And if you could choose between working fully remotely or having someone who wants you to work fully on site, that's going to be a pretty easy choice.
00:10:07 Maria: Or someone who is going to be okay with you going to the dentist without having to report every minute of how long you're there versus someone who is willing to lead human first and people first. So I feel like that culture is something that people are learning to assess while they're outside of the organization and to actually avoid, which is really good for them. I'm happy for them. But that means a lot of organizations end up having no fundraiser.
00:10:39 Laura: That's right. And that's what people are looking for. And they're looking for the environment and they get to make the choice. And one of the groups that we're familiar with that took a long time to find someone, they were looking for someone who could be in person, at least some of the time they have a hybrid work environment. And we've known people who are looking for a fully remote and finding the right match. It's just, there's more and more things that people are looking at and the benefits.
00:11:07 Laura: Paid parental leave is something we hear about a lot more here that people are asking their employers for and employers are thinking about, how can we make that happen. But until they do, anyone who's looking for paid parental leave isn't coming to work for your shop. So the expectations have been misaligned. There's a power shift that's taken place. People get to choose. Hopefully, it's also moving us forward these pressures.
00:11:36 Maria: Yeah, I think one of the things, like if I was a DOD looking for a role right now, so definitely I would want the highest salary that I could get because I am very passionate about many things, right? Remote first or remote only or just the ability to choose because I know when I need to go talk to a donor better than you do, right? But also I feel like one of the things that would stop me from being an internal DOD, again, is the inability to speak truly and freely about my values. So having a board member chime in saying, like, oh, you shouldn't be talking about poverty, that's too political, would be soul crushing. And I feel like while leadership is trying to adapt to some of these changes, they're not moving as fast as fundraisers really need them to move.
00:12:30 Laura: Yeah, and I think maybe even as our donors need them to move. Where practitioners are value-based fundraising, you mentioned our value-based major giving that you and Sarah talked about. And when we talk about this and we talk about using these, connecting with donors around values, donors are in, they're there. They're ready to meet you. They're ready to have those conversations, even if they're difficult. No, not a hundred percent, but enough of them.
00:12:57 Laura: And this is how we're really going to create change in our communities and move more money to mission is when people get really invested in these relationships and the missions and they start to understand all of the complexity of the work that's going on and the challenges and the assets of a community. And so that values alignment and the ability to talk values, I think, is what's going to propel organizations forward.
00:13:24 Laura: And I think you're absolutely right to find yourself in an organization that is suppressing that, that is not willing to have any of those hard conversations for fear of upsetting the donor. They're going to barely be able to tread water in this new environment, not only because they won't be able to keep fundraisers, but because their donors will become disengaged as well.
00:13:50 Maria: So my last role, when I left, my whole team left, every single fundraiser left. I think that speaks a lot to the culture and all the issues there, X, Y, and Z. But when I was leaving, I was following other people who had left before me. Donors were asking, like, oh, it seems like fundraisers move around a lot, right? So they're noticing. But my board was saying like, oh, it's because of the great resignation. They were not taking any accountability for, 150% attrition rate.
00:14:20 Maria: The other thing that maybe like going back to what I said earlier like would make me want to potentially change organizations. If I was an internal fundraiser going to a different organization would be a four day work week. I would be a big sell, even if the salary was in 100 percent of the way there. But that's another thing that I feel like a lot of nonprofits are still very resistant to adopting.
00:14:44 Laura: Yeah, I agree. We're seeing a little more of it or incremental steps towards it, more and more organizations that are just closed at the end of the calendar year or for some period in the summer or that shut down Friday afternoons or Fridays in the summer kind of thing. So we're seeing little steps and more and more of it. I think that it's really interesting. This is another place where I think dynamics between funders, donors, donors, funders, and organizations are going to kind of come into alignment as well.
00:15:20 Laura: Two, I mean, I think that nonprofit organizations, part of their fear behind doing that, aside from some unfounded fears that people will just get less work done. We can't get everything done now. How will we get it done if we're only working for four days? Which is, I will confess, to having had those thoughts myself as this kind of idea of a four-day work week was emerging into the world. But there seems to be ample evidence that that's not what happened, that people are more productive in those four days.
00:15:51 Laura: But there's also this fear that funders won't support that, that donors won't like the idea that people are working part-time and getting full-time salaries or that they're gonna give them the same amount of money for people who aren't working as much. And so this dance that we're doing, people are gonna have to step out there boldly to make that happen. And we've seen here in our community that there's, I can think of at least one funder, who's gone to a four-day work week.
00:16:20 Laura: And I think that more steps in that direction will make a big difference in creating this culture within the sector where it's not just okay to have a four-day work week, it's okay to take care of your people. Because underlying all of this is the sense that we are all martyrs or have to be sacrificing, that we can't achieve our missions without paying these prices.
00:16:43 Maria: I always find that the people who say, Donors won't like it if you pay a living wage. Donors won't like it if you go to a four-day work week. Donors won't like it if you buy chairs. They're the people who least talk to donors, who have no actual relationships with any single donor, who have very minimal contact with volunteers or even sometimes staff. So you hear donors won't like it, and it just feels like a little bit of a self-imposed excuse, if that makes sense on what we think or what we imagine people will say without us even trying it.
00:17:22 Laura: Yes.
00:17:23 Maria: Like the fear of trying something, the fear that someone might reject something that you're doing is more important than living your values or supporting your staff or anything like that. So I always find that a little bit contradictory.
00:17:38 Laura: Yeah, it's the ultimate of, it's a scarcity mindset that there's not enough and that people won't understand. And I think let's help them understand. I think we've shown again and again as fundraisers that we can bring people along, especially those that are really in it for the right reasons, and most of them are.
00:17:56 Maria: So maybe we could shift gears right now and talk about… so we know why fundraisers are leaving. We know why it's harder for people to retain their DODs. Maybe we can chat about how first boards and EDs can be supportive of their current fundraiser, so they don't leave, and then maybe a little bit more about attracting and keeping the right person.
00:18:22 Laura: Sure.
00:18:22 Maria: So what do you think leaders can do to retain their fundraiser?
00:18:27 Laura: Yeah, so aside from the salaries and benefits stuff that we have been talking about, I think that boards and executive directors really can be looking at the way they are inviting fundraisers into the decision making and conversations. I think that the fundraisers are looking to their leaders, whether it's a director of development, their executive director, their board members, to help them or walk with them through these changing times and changing practices.
00:19:04 Laura: They want to be part of the decisions about strategy and they want to be deeply involved in the direction of the organization because those are missions that they care about as well. And because to really understand what's going on and where decisions are coming from makes you a better fundraiser. So I think that the more organizational leaders can do to involve their fundraisers and other staff to be transparent, to be open, to be inviting, to engage with the difficult issues that the organization is facing, I think that that will go a long way to keeping people in place and keeping them invested in the organization.
00:19:45 Laura: I think they're also looking for leaders who are learning and open about what they're learning and unlearning. For people like me, who've been around for these 30 some odd years as one of the very ubiquitous white women in fundraising and nonprofits, there's a lot of unlearning going on. And leaders can be really open and honest about what they're learning and unlearning and the challenges they're facing and come to that with some humility and vulnerability. I think that creates an environment where the team can learn together and share and be part of this change that's happening in the sector together.
00:20:27 Laura: And so supporting that learning and unlearning, I think is really important. And you do it by creating that culture that I'm talking about. You also do it by budgeting for it, budgeting money and time to go to sit in a webinar or to read a book for self-study too. So I think that professional development is an important thing that organizations can offer in order to keep staff, keep them engaged, help them grow.
00:20:54 Laura: And then I think we need to let more of them lead. Organizational leaders, directors of development, they don't all have to have all the answers that a lot of the folks on our team come with experience and perspectives. And all of that can be applied and they're going to have great ideas and let's let them lead to. And I think this all adds up to an environment that will help retain fundraisers and develop fundraisers so that they are someday ready to take on those formal leadership positions within our nonprofit organizations.
00:21:28 Maria: Love all of that. Yes. Okay, so I want to touch base on something that you said about the learning and unlearning that leaders can do and having that space. And that sounds like a very vulnerable position, right? Because you had to admit that you don't know everything. And as an ED, as a board member, that might make you feel vulnerable. Yeah, that might make you feel less respected.
00:21:57 Laura: It's not only admitting what you don't know or that you're admitting you've been wrong. I was a really good donor-centric fundraiser for a long time. I raised a lot of money, money that did good in the world mostly, but it was donor-centered practices. And I am still unlearning all those things. And in talking about what I'm unlearning and learning, I try to both acknowledge what I don't know and acknowledge that, yeah, I made mistakes or that at one time I didn't know what I know now.
00:22:31 Laura: So it's a very vulnerable place. You have to bring a lot of humility into the space and hold that tension with your team. And my experience is that in part because I've been surrounded by some people doing the same things, right? They're unlearning and admitting our mistakes together. But it's also very well received. I've been doing some reading and some interesting stuff about humans. We talk about fight and flight, but we're also biologically wired to care for each other and to accept caring. And so when you come into things with humility, my experience, people have been really supportive and happy to learn and unlearn and teach, maybe right there with you.
00:23:16 Maria: What I find interesting about that is it's either you're vulnerable because you're sharing openly with your staff, you're telling them what you know or don't know, what you've done wrong, or you're vulnerable and alone. Like you feel like you can't share, you feel like you're preemptively warning off something bad but you're vulnerable and not sharing it, not getting the best opinions versus vulnerable and moving forward together.
00:23:44 Laura: Yeah, and vulnerable alone is, yeah, that's no fun. So vulnerable with people.
00:23:51 Maria: Yeah.
00:23:52 Laura: And my experience has been, much better place to be. And it's complicated. It's complex because, especially for organizational leaders, there were different pressures, different things when I was in this role. I could have conversations with my team and be really supportive of the changes we were trying to make and move forward, and also be trying to navigate what the organization would support, where the organization was, how being thoughtful and strategic about how we could best move the organization forward. I don't know many organizations that are just ready to flip a switch.
00:24:34 Laura: And so change is more incremental. And I was fortunate to be in an organization that was ready to stretch in some new ways and we had to be thoughtful about it. So as a leader navigating with a team that was really hungry to try new things and lean into community centric fundraising and an organization that was a little more of a tell me more and what does this mean? And these are important skills that went back to what we were talking about before about development directors. This is an important place that a nexus that they're sitting at and have to navigate.
00:25:08 Laura: And I wish all the development directors out there a little grace from both sides of that equation, from their teams and from the rest of their organization's leadership. I'm sure it's contributing to the difficulty finding and keeping development directors. Right now, and, it also reinforces the fact that we should pay them well, and offer them realistic work schedules and flexibility and all the things. They're worth it.
00:25:34 Maria: I think that would just touch on for me, it's kind of like a raw nerve because I could deal with Megalomaniac, you know what I'm saying, Megalomaniac. You can say it for me.
00:25:47 Laura: Megalomaniac? Is that what you're trying to get out?
00:25:49 Maria: Yes, thank you. I could deal with those people, very egocentric people, unrealistic budget expectations, unrealistic fundraising expectations. But what I couldn't deal with was trying to pretend everything was okay to my team. Cause I felt that was trying to take away their agency, their consent to like, oh, if they knew they would leave right away. And I think that I’m not a gatekeeper of information, I'm not your parent, I don't get to decide what's best for you in your life. Like work is a huge part of your life.
00:26:27 Maria: When I know that I'm about to leave, I know that I don't feel understood or heard, or let's say the board doesn't even have to understand, but at least respected. You don't even have your opinion respected as a DOD, so often, like you're just seeing us less skilled or less professional than someone in a corporate position and they all come from corporate backgrounds. So how does that reflect on you?
00:26:57 Laura: And that's one of the things we talk with boards and development committees about is really, when we're talking about roles, it's letting your fundraisers be the experts in fundraising. Yeah, it seems obvious when you say it, but there are ways that boards can really be useful and supportive of fundraising. One of the biggest is letting the experts set the strategy, work strategy, and tell them how they can best contribute. That's a really important point that you're making there. And to let them be the experts when it comes to saying how much we think we can raise is important too.
00:27:41 Laura: We know someone who recently took a new director of development position. And over the course of the first 60 days or so was really coming to terms with where the budget numbers came from, where the goal for this year came from, and coming to understand just how unrooted it was from fundraising strategy. And then you've got a new leader, when that happens who, their expertise, they look at all this and they know from within 60 days that they're going to fail to meet this goal that's been set in front of them. Because it's just, it's not possible with the tools and the strategies they've got right now or the relationships or the state of things.
00:28:27 Laura: And even the most optimistic of them that stick that out and power through. And they come close if they still, so many fundraisers are really goal oriented. It hurts to not make those goals. And that is not the way to set your development director up for success is by setting those unrealistic goals or not engaging them in setting those goals. Let your fundraisers be the expert. Listen to them.
00:28:55 Maria: Also moving the goalpost.
00:28:57 Laura: Oh, sure.
00:28:58 Maria: It's like, oh, I exceeded expectations. How amazing. And then it's like, oh, now we're going to have to raise an extra million dollars. And you exceed their expectations, but you did not hit the million dollars. Then you're being held to this other standard, but not even thanked for exceeding expectations already and raising more money.
00:29:18 Maria: I've actually had a board when I exceeded expectations because I always try to be realistic, but you never know, especially pandemic years were very tricky. But I had this board chair called me, oh, maybe I told you, called me a [unclear]. And I had to look that up because it was in the finest community notes, but I had to look it up and basically it means someone who sets a goal lower. So when they exceed it, you can praise them.
00:29:48 Laura: Oh, yikes.
00:29:50 Maria: Yeah. And it's like, if I don't hit the goal, people get fired. And if I do hit the goal, you thought I was lying this whole time that it's just very unfortunate the way that would treat DODs and it's a very difficult situation to navigate. I wanted to ask you for an executive director or a DOD who's managing a fundraiser, how are ways that they can show I have your back? Like I get how difficult this role is, like I'm gonna champion you.
00:30:25 Laura: Yeah, so I think within the organization, they can be holding the organization accountable to its values and advocating for their staff to have the resources they need, the salary and benefits they need to do their jobs well. I think that they can also be working with their teams around boundaries. We talk about this a lot for fundraisers, boundaries with donors and setting those as a team and setting boundaries where it's clear that that director is gonna back them up if a donor crosses one of those lines and there'll be some action taken.
00:31:04 Laura: Whether it's simply that a fundraiser says, you know, I can't meet with this person anymore. And their director says, okay, fine. That's the end of it. Or whether a donor says something inappropriate or a board member says something inappropriate and the director leans in and tackles that and calls them out on it, addresses it in a really timely fashion in a clear way. So there are ways that directors can show their support kind of within the organization and with the donor community as well. Like those are both really important.
00:31:41 Maria: Laura, thank you so much for being on the podcast today. Are there any final thoughts you want to leave our audience with?
00:31:47 Laura: We've been doing some thinking about directors of development in our practice and what it means to be a fundraising leader. And we've put together some questions that organizations can ask people that are, they're considering hiring and that people who are considering taking Director of Development positions might ask of organizations. And that's a free resource that people can access on our website, which is staigervitelli.com, S-T-A-I-G-E-R-V, as in Victor, I-T-E-L-L-I dot com slash D-O-D. And you'll find those questions there for you if that's useful for elevating some of the things we've been talking about today and entering into conversations about them. So that's a resource that's out there that we'd like to offer.
00:32:40 Maria: I love that. And where can people connect with you if they wanna continue the conversation?
00:32:45 Laura: You can connect with me and find me on our website and schedule time to talk with me or Sarah there or reach out via email or I'm also on LinkedIn, Laura Vitelli.
00:32:57 Maria: Nice. Well, thank you again, Laura. This has been really awesome. I think we got really into a lot of the detail and also the feelings behind a lot of people are faced. Really appreciate you coming on.
00:33:09 Laura: I'm happy to do it. Thanks so much. It was great to be here.
00:33:13 Maria: And thank you all for tuning to another episode of The Small Nonprofit podcast. I hope this gave you a lot to think about when it comes to how you treat your fundraisers, treat them better, but also the kind of treatment that you're willing to put up with and some of the priorities that you might have when looking for a new role. So wishing you the best out there and bye for now.
00:33:37 Maria: Thank you for listening to another episode of The Small Nonprofit. If you want to continue the conversation, feel free to connect with our guests directly or find me on LinkedIn. Let's keep moving money to mission and prioritizing our well-being. Bye for now.
